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 Post subject: Coalition Agreement
PostPosted: Thu, 20 May 2010 10:48:05 +0000 
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http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/409088/pfg_coalition.pdf
Page 21, Section 17 Immigration
Quote:
We support E-borders and will reintroduce exit checks.

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Geraint.
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 Post subject: Re: Coalition Agreement
PostPosted: Fri, 21 May 2010 06:40:16 +0000 
But that doesn't confirm what type of e-Borders checks they are looking at.

The Home Affairs Committee has left an excoriating report report on the viability of the e-Borders programme. The Immigration Minister, Damian Green, probably has not settled down to look at the issues in detail yet. When he does he will find that the scheme is practically unworkable and legally impossible.

If the Government wants to count people in and out of the country as they arrive and depart then that is probably achievable. New Labour wanted to pre screen every traveller up to 24 hours before they departed. There are major logistical and legal challenges to this which they will soon be discovered.


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 Post subject: Re: Coalition Agreement
PostPosted: Mon, 24 May 2010 10:01:29 +0000 
Damian Green was the person who bullied labour into this in the first place, by plugging the ridiculous and offensive idea that it's necessary for the government to know exactly who's in the country at any given moment.

E-borders was just about the most pernicious bit of labour surveillance and the coalition is keeping it. They haven't quite got the knack of the idea of a free country.

You can't have a free country if you have to ask permission from the state, in advance, to leave it.


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 Post subject: Re: Coalition Agreement
PostPosted: Mon, 24 May 2010 23:20:49 +0000 
Geraint wrote:
http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/media/409088/pfg_coalition.pdf
Page 21, Section 17 Immigration
Quote:
We support E-borders and will reintroduce exit checks.


Quote:
ridiculous and offensive idea that it's necessary for the government to know exactly who's in the country at any given moment. You can't have a free country if you have to ask permission from the state, in advance, to leave it.


I don't see what's wrong with exit checks. Name me a country that doesn't do it apart from the UK. Even now with some person just looking at your passport is nothing compared to the big card everyone has to fill in in Australia upon leaving and entering. In the UK only non-EEA people need a landing card. However the Australian data is used mainly for statistics.

It is absolutely necessary for the government to know every foreigner without permanent residence who is in the country at any given time. If you support the current tax rules, you will also see that there is an argument for HMRC to be able to check how many days a person has spent in the country during a tax year. While citizens don't need a passport to enter the country, how else can you tell someone is a citizen unless there is some type of ID?

I don't think anyone was proposing needing exit visas... And how about catching people who are wanted for a crime? In Canada, if you are taking your kids out the country without your spouse you need to bring a letter to prove that you are not abducting them... (or that you're a single parent, etc. obviously)


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 Post subject: Re: Coalition Agreement
PostPosted: Tue, 25 May 2010 07:44:08 +0000 
"Name me a country that doesn't do it apart from the UK."

France

Germany

the Irish Republic

Switzerland

Denmark

Spain

Norway

Sweden

Look - I'm sick of typing these. There's no need for these "checks" (your word for being stopped by someone from the government who has a think about whether they will allow you to proceed) and we're the only place in Europe that has them. They are oppressive and expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Coalition Agreement
PostPosted: Thu, 27 May 2010 09:21:47 +0000 
you may be sick of typing them but you should at least get your facts straight. Spain already has such a system, and Ireland and France are looking to introduce one. Cynicism fuelled by ignorance is not particularly helpful


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 Post subject: Re: Coalition Agreement
PostPosted: Fri, 28 May 2010 07:52:35 +0000 
No they don't. Last time I traveled between France and Spain the car was doing sixty miles an hour.


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 Post subject: Re: Coalition Agreement
PostPosted: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:37:19 +0000 
Guest wrote:
we're the only place in Europe that has them


My meaning of exit check is the same as the government's. If I'm taking the Eurostar from London, before I get on the train I need to show my passport to the French guy only (well, 2 years ago - not sure about now), in order to enter the Schengen area. If I'm taking it from Paris I need to show it to the French guy to leave the Schengen area, and then to the British guy in order to enter the UK. What is wrong with showing it to a British guy before leaving? Someone said:

Guest wrote:
who has a think about whether they will allow you to proceed


But no, they don't "have a think". If they see a EU passport, they just make sure that it is you in the photo and then its "have a nice trip". It's the same when you're coming in - may be even easier as you have to sort yourselves out into lines at the airports. They don't stamp anything and certainly don't log the fact that you left the UK on a computer. (I guess the airline has already done it, but the airlines did it before they started the exit checks anyway)

OK, so now name me a country that doesn't do that besides the UK. The Schengen area is a single country for this purpose, as are the British Isles. The point of these checks is to make sure that any foreigner is not overstaying. And they only way to know if someone is a foreigner or not is to make everyone show their passport. They are not even going to challenge foreigners - except to log any overstayers, who will not be allowed back in and if they apply for a new visa it may be refused. There is nothing and never will be anything anywhere about needing to get what would be called an "exit visa", for example like they had in the Soviet Union, unless the UK leaves the EU and "unsigns" the Declaration of Human Rights.


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 Post subject: Re: Coalition Agreement
PostPosted: Sat, 29 May 2010 11:46:33 +0000 
Spain check advance passenger information (API) for all passengers arriving or departing from outside the Schengen area, which we are not part of. If you would like to be part of Schengen then we may as well all give up - I think too many people have been reading the Daily Mail........


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