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 Posted: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 09:48:25 +0000 Post subject: No Borders South Wales - ID card protest |
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On Saturday 4th October at 2pm outside
the Passport Office in Dock Street, Newport,
No Borders South Wales will be holding a
protest against ID cards, biometric
passports, and the surveillance society in
general. |
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No Borders South Wales
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| Posted: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 11:34:03 +0000 Post subject: Protest Against ID cards in Newport |
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As you may know from this November foreign nationals wanting to enter the UK will have to apply for “biometric residence permits” and their details will be entered into a national identity database. Clearly this is the thin end of the wedge, an early phase in the scheme to introduce ID cards to everybody.
No Borders South Wales will be holding a protest against ID cards, biometric passports, and the surveillance society in general on Saturday 4th October at 2pm outside the Passport Office, Olympia House, Upper Dock Street, Newport, NP20 1XA. We will be distributing leaflets and raising awareness about the new ID laws that come into force this November.
We invite all No2ID activists along with anyone else who is opposed to ID cards to join us.
More info on the protest: http://noborderswales.wordpress.com/2008/08/30/worried-about-id-cards/ |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 20:48:54 +0000 Post subject: |
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No Borders South Wales
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| Posted: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:18:47 +0000 Post subject: Re: more info |
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Good to see this important step of putting No-ID and No-border control together in practice. |
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Andrew Watson
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| Posted: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 09:51:37 +0000 Post subject: Re: more info |
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| Anonymous wrote: |
Good to see this important step of putting No-ID and No-border control together in practice. |
... although to be clear: while NO2ID members certainly have strongly-held views on the "no border control" issue, NO2ID as an organisation has no position one way or the other on this.
Edit: fixed spelling.
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Andrew Watson
Last edited by Andrew Watson on Wed, 01 Oct 2008 11:33:08 +0000; edited 1 time in total |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 10:42:51 +0000 Post subject: |
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The issue is ID cards come into force this November!
The government is using classic divide and rule tactics, going for the soft target of foreigners before forcing ID cards on the rest of us.
If ID cards for foreign nationals are deemed 'a success' the government have a powerful example they can point too whenever ID cards for UK citizens are discussed.
This is not the time for arguing about the finer points of what opponents of ID cards think should happen to people from outside the EU. This is the time to shout from the highest rooftops "ID Cards are here! And soon you'll be forced to carry one unless we all resist!" |
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ukliberty
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| Posted: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 12:28:12 +0000 Post subject: |
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| They aren't ID cards for foreigners. They are biometric residence and work permits. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 13:26:04 +0000 Post subject: |
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| ukliberty wrote: | | They aren't ID cards for foreigners. They are biometric residence and work permits. |
Keep telling yourself that if you like.
Fact is the government will be able to happily tell the press that the current ID cards are successful and popular (even amongst some of NO2ID's supporters!!)
First they came for the non-EU nationals.... |
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FishNChipPapers
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| Posted: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 14:43:25 +0000 Post subject: |
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| Anonymous wrote: |
Fact is the government will be able to happily tell the press that the current ID cards are successful and popular (even amongst some of NO2ID's supporters!!)
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Which is why we need to happily point out that they are not ID cards so that the press aren't duped into believing that ID cards are successful and popular. |
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Baron von Lotsov.
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| Posted: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:15:35 +0000 Post subject: Re: more info |
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| Andrew Watson wrote: | | Anonymous wrote: |
Good to see this important step of putting No-ID and No-border control together in practice. |
... although to be clear: while NO2ID members certainly have strongly-held views on the "no border control" issue, NO2ID as an organisation has no position one way or the other on this.
Edit: fixed spelling. |
Absolutely, since it would be very harmful for the campaign considering the number of people against unchecked immigration. Indeed they would conclude ID cards were necessary/lesser of two evils etc.
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ukliberty
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| Posted: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 19:44:07 +0000 Post subject: |
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| Anonymous wrote: | | ukliberty wrote: | | They aren't ID cards for foreigners. They are biometric residence and work permits. |
Keep telling yourself that if you like.
Fact is the government will be able to happily tell the press that the current ID cards are successful and popular (even amongst some of NO2ID's supporters!!)
First they came for the non-EU nationals.... |
This comes back again to the issue of the (deliberate?) conflation of entitlement and identification - something that should be exposed.
I am sure people who are against immigration will be quite happy to learn that some foreign nationals are being issued with biometric residence and work permits - perhaps even more happy than they would be with ID cards. |
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| Posted: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 23:53:42 +0000 Post subject: |
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| ukliberty wrote: | | I am sure people who are against immigration will be quite happy to learn that some foreign nationals are being issued with biometric residence and work permits |
On the other hand they might not be so keen on the plan to issue up to a million a year and enable the 'tidal wave of immigrants' to continue.
The latest announcement can be spun several different ways, only one of which is in the government's favour, and nobody wants to take their word for anything nowadays anyway.
Something for everyone. Except for the government, and I'm happy for them to get nothing but their own hot air. |
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Baron von Lotsov.
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| Posted: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 01:53:20 +0000 Post subject: |
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| ukliberty wrote: | | Anonymous wrote: | | ukliberty wrote: | | They aren't ID cards for foreigners. They are biometric residence and work permits. |
Keep telling yourself that if you like.
Fact is the government will be able to happily tell the press that the current ID cards are successful and popular (even amongst some of NO2ID's supporters!!)
First they came for the non-EU nationals.... |
This comes back again to the issue of the (deliberate?) conflation of entitlement and identification - something that should be exposed.
I am sure people who are against immigration will be quite happy to learn that some foreign nationals are being issued with biometric residence and work permits - perhaps even more happy than they would be with ID cards. |
There was some mention a while back of a government move for a 600 000 amnesty for illegal immigrants. Apparently it is too much bother to apprehend them, and only insisting they have an ID card after three months is much like the EU trying to bully Malta by telling them they should not detain them prior to deportation. It's a sham basically, and I would hate people to think the main reason people object to ID cards is because they are pro-immigration. This is in no way the case; there is a huge body of people who are against both. Indeed most are smart enough to see what a sham it is, to pretend that immigration will be stopped by ID cards. Anyway, this is my personal line when arguing about it and I get at least 90 % agreement. The only people for no borders seem to be people who want to gain access to this country where otherwise they would not be allowed to. They have no vote and they basically do not count. It’s like foreign political donations; they have no right to access the politics of a foreign country.
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little_brother
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| Posted: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:03:18 +0000 Post subject: |
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No2ID's "single issue" is falling apart before our eyes. I can only applaud South Wales No Borders for their demo, and in their demonstration report they say:
| Quote: | | This unwillingness [of No2ID] to defend the rights of migrants endangers the struggle for everyone’s liberty. Previously Defy ID has been a vehicle for opposition to ID cards from a libertarian perspective, but given the manner in which the government is using a a greater repression of migrants as a testing ground for this scheme No Borders must intervene. |
Quite right, and we can clearly see that those little englanders on this forum are no less ideological than those of us who see the attack on migrants with this 'new' ID card as an attack on every freedom loving person (and not really new, considering the existing asylum seekers' biometric ‘Application Registration Card’ (ARC) card and biometric database - http://www.cfsms.nhs.uk/doc/cfs.general/nass.flyer.pdf ).
http://www.nottingham-defy-id.org.uk
http://www.nobordersnottingham.org.uk |
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ukliberty
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| Posted: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 16:18:53 +0000 Post subject: |
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(I do not speak for NO2ID.)
You seem to be conflating the 'rights of migrants', which NO2ID has no interest in, with the issue of 'ID cards for migrants', which NO2ID does have an interest in.
The No Borders South Wales blog itself quoted a NO2ID comment on this very issue, which makes NO2ID's position very clear (at least, it makes it clear to me): | Quote: | Resistance to the database state is growing, but that has not discouraged Whitehall. It seems more determined than ever to sneak round obstacles using misdirection and to find new, softer, targets…
Latest of those soft targets are overseas students, and people seeking to settle in the UK with British husbands and wives. Those, people with strong reasons not to make a fuss, are the ones to be targeted for the new biometric card scheme that will act as a test bed for the ID scheme. Jacqui Smith’s launch of “ID cards for foreigners” was a shameless piece of spin to try to associate the unpopular ID scheme with the popular policy of restricting immigration.
There’s no real link. And it is unclear how much technology there is yet. But immigration law already gives the Home Office some of the powers it would like to exert over everyone, and so it has a free hand to try out, on a few selected foreign residents, the processes it eventually intends to use for everyone else. |
I have no idea how you translated that to, "NO2ID's single issue is falling apart before our eyes", or that it doesn't care about 'ID cards for migrants'.
Perhaps forum contributors have been too subtle / not explained their positions very well - in retrospect, I don't believe I did. |
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| Posted: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 18:19:18 +0000 Post subject: |
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| ukliberty wrote: | (I do not speak for NO2ID.)
You seem to be conflating the 'rights of migrants', which NO2ID has no interest in, with the issue of 'ID cards for migrants', which NO2ID does have an interest in.
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Yes, and that's the point. No2ID has failed tactically by not realising these have always been part of the same thing in reality, and has not acted against the treatment of asylum seekers who have been forced to be fingerprinted and made to turn up every week to register with an immigration reporting centre. Now we are getting ID cards for other foreigners and we are told by No2ID these aren't proper ID cards.
The way to ensure freedom is to ensure freedom for all, including freedom of movement on this earth irrespective of where you are born. The history of immigration control is part of a system of control of which ID cards and passports are a part. This is not an issue of Left or Right either. The authoritarian left has a long history in the policy of control, no better than the right. Anarchism, which opposes artificial national states (and borders between) has a consistent position on this. Another consistent position, sadly, is an anti-immigrant & pro-borders one - however those that argue that identity documentation is OK for foreigners and not for the natives dig their own graves. |
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Andrew Watson
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| Posted: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:18:08 +0000 Post subject: |
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| Anonymous wrote: | | The way to ensure freedom is to ensure freedom for all, including freedom of movement on this earth irrespective of where you are born. The history of immigration control is part of a system of control of which ID cards and passports are a part. This is not an issue of Left or Right either. The authoritarian left has a long history in the policy of control, no better than the right. Anarchism, which opposes artificial national states (and borders between) has a consistent position on this. Another consistent position, sadly, is an anti-immigrant & pro-borders one - however those that argue that identity documentation is OK for foreigners and not for the natives dig their own graves. |
You think there should be no borders, and consider all the non-anarchists who do not agree to be a potential enemy.
NO2ID thinks there should be no government identity management and centralised population tracking in the UK, and considers everyone who agrees to be a potential ally.
Which position do you think is more likely to achieve its goals? Discuss ...
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| Posted: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 10:24:33 +0000 Post subject: |
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| Andrew Watson wrote: | You think there should be no borders, and consider all the non-anarchists who do not agree to be a potential enemy.
NO2ID thinks there should be no government identity management and centralised population tracking in the UK, and considers everyone who agrees to be a potential ally.
Which position do you think is more likely to achieve its goals? Discuss ... |
Noone is saying a no borders position is popular - neither is UKIP! The point must be for more people in Britain gain some understanding that the technology of control is already outside the remit of single nation states - as indicated by Amnesty here: http://www.amnestyinternational.be/doc/article12732.html
| Quote: | | In Brussels and the Member States, debates on asylum and migration are distorted by both real and perceived risks for security – physical security that brings up fear of terrorism and other crimes ; economic security that raises fear of mass migration ; and what I would call societal or identity security which offsets a general fear of the ‘other’. Once the politics of fear take over, human rights are inevitably at risk and the foreigner in our societies often becomes the first victim. I believe the biggest challenge facing EU policy makers is to avoid the security ‘trap’ and keep sight of the human beings behind abstract concepts like asylum seeker, refugee or migrant. |
Unless this 'challenge' becomes part of an overall goal to defend freedom for all, you can argue all you like for a single issue against a single state national ID card, but the longer term trend seems to be towards one that 'securitizes' both borders and landmasses. As an example, the whole of Slovenia's landmass is effectively a Schengen 'border' for the purposes of identification. For this reason the Conservative 'idea' of more border police checks in place of national ID cards is effectively a false choice, an illusion maintained because we are an island - we are likely to get both from any government in the long term. |
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Carpe Noctum
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| Posted: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 10:58:36 +0000 Post subject: |
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Sadly, while I am inclined to agree at least philosophically very strongly with the "No Borders" position, a vast proportion of our society is driven by visceral hatred of foreigners in particular, and anybody who doesn't look or behave like them, generally. Witness for instance the recent rise of the far right in Austria.
As long as it's possible for people to intone "theytookourjobs" or any variant, the dissolution of national borders will always been seen as a lunatic position by the mainstream.
Please do not conflate this with our campaign. |
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ukliberty
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| Posted: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 11:47:03 +0000 Post subject: |
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| Anonymous wrote: | | The point must be for more people in Britain gain some understanding that the technology of control is already outside the remit of single nation states |
I don't understand what you mean by this. We remain a sovereign nation and EU law is supreme within its competencies unless and until we legislate otherwise.
There is certainly a case for better education about migration and particularly about how EU laws are formed (indeed our own politicians could learn much) and what policy laundering is (national ministers using the EU as proxy for domestically unpopular legislation).
But this greatly dilutes the message of NO2ID, which has appeared to me to be a successful campaign so far and not one I'd like to see endangered. |
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DicP
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| Posted: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:17:56 +0000 Post subject: |
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| Carpe Noctum wrote: | Sadly, while I am inclined to agree at least philosophically very strongly with the "No Borders" position, a vast proportion of our society is driven by visceral hatred of foreigners in particular, and anybody who doesn't look or behave like them, generally. Witness for instance the recent rise of the far right in Austria.
As long as it's possible for people to intone "theytookourjobs" or any variant, the dissolution of national borders will always been seen as a lunatic position by the mainstream.
Please do not conflate this with our campaign. |
The is no attempt to conflate the concept of Free Migration and opposition to the introduction of ID cards.
The government is introducing ID cards through an attack on the rights of non-EU students and spouses. Therefore migrant solidarity groups are making a stand against ID cards.
The Labour government are using racism to craft the thin end of the wedge for ID cards, rolling over and saying "people are racist in the UK" would mean letting the opposition to ID cards slide the very moment they are first implemented.
It is only through popular resistance across the groups the government would divide us into that the ID database project can be made unworkable. As NO2ID press releases have noted, non-EU students and spouses have the most reason not to make a fuss, meaning it falls to anti-ID activists to make a stand.
Therefore it is not surprising that people issue are looking to see if NO2ID are using the introduction of ID cards as the launch-point for a step up in resistance, standing shoulder to shoulder with the first group the government has victimised. |
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Baron von Lotsov.
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DicP
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| Posted: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 00:53:51 +0000 Post subject: |
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No, Cardiff Radical Socialist Forum and No Borders South Wales are different groups. Jon was not involved with any of No Borders South Wales activities either on ID cards or anything else beyond voicing support for our anti-deportation campaigns.
No-one from No Borders South Wales is looking to "rubbish NO2ID", and it is clear you have not researched the different groups if you really think they both have "an identical kind of politic"!! |
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| Posted: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 07:53:23 +0000 Post subject: |
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DicP,
Just to support you here: NO2ID does not think No Border Southy Wales is attcaking NO2ID. Nor do we have any problem with the No border campaign in general - we just cannot support it because NO2ID does not and cannot have an opinion on what is the correct immigration policy (or absence of policy).
I hope that readers in general do not assume that what is posted on an open forum (any forum, not just ours) is either accurate or represents the view of the organisation whose forum it is. |
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