NO2ID

[David Moss]

Nicholas Watt:

[stu2630]

[zorrodp]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/politics/story/0,,2236052,00.html

Some of the detail from the interview to counter:

ID cards are seen as a tool for dealing with terrorism but there is a debate about whether they are an encroachment on civil liberties. Are you still committed to pressing ahead with them?

I think this debate has to be one where people can see where there's agreement as well as where there's been a debate that's led to disagreement. If someone said to you that I'm going to give you a better form of passport with biometrics and I'm going to include the current passport information in that; if someone said to you ... that if someone comes to this country as a foreign national, given the worries about illegal immigration, they should carry some form of identity, I think most people would agree. And I think we've got to get the debate about, if you like the management, the identity management to a reasonable level.

But people seem confused as to what they are for. Is it specifically to guard against foreign nationals working and living illegally here? Or is it aimed at domestic security?

There are two things. One is, when it comes to foreign nationals coming in and the danger of illegal immigration. I think most people would support there being some form of identification that people are asked to produce.

Is that the principal reason for ID cards?

As far as the individual is concerned, the danger for me and you in the modern world is that our identity is easily stolen. And people feel worried when information that is personal to them is lost, and rightly so. And I think if we were giving a better means by which people could protect their identity, then in the private as well as the public sector people are looking at biometrics. I mean maybe in a few years' time on your computer you will need biometrics rather than a password.

Maybe when you go to a supermarket, as happens in some parts of the States and Europe, you are going to be safer, instead of carrying a credit card which can easily be stolen, to use your biometrics to shop. Maybe in relation to banking to use biometrics or fingerprint biometrics, you might find that you are safer in your banking transaction than if you carried a card and a number. But the very fact that you've got biometrics now in a way that you didn't have two centuries ago gives you opportunities to protect people's identity and I don't think we should rule out the use of that. In fact, I don't actually think most of the general public think that the use of biometrics is in itself wrong, either for private transactions or for passports or whatever.

So are you committed to ID cards?

We're committed to the proposals we put forward which are essentially that the information you now use to get your passport, linked to the biometrics now available, give you a better form of protection. But I'm happy that this debate continues, because I believe that over the course of it some preconceptions will be dealt with.

So would it be that British citizens and non-British citizens would need them?

Yes, but under our proposals there is no compulsion for existing British citizens.
_________________
Remember: Your ID Card is for All of Your Life, not Just a Puppy for Christmas

[Justin]

[Antony]

[Andrew Watson]

For my money the worst lie in the interview is this one:

"You know we are not trying to store information about individuals that are not actually, that is not information already in passports."

It's just possible for politicians to argue that ID cards are voluntary because they're tied to passports, which are voluntary. However, the sentence I've quoted is simply, categorically untrue of the National Identity Register.
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Andrew Watson

[Guest]

All this proves that Brown is quite happy for the false "debate" concerning ID cards to rumble on, knowing full well that ID cards will be introduced by stealth in the UK and in every other country in the world, through the introduction of biometric passports and the passport interrogations to form the database for future compulsory ID cards.

[Guest]

[Guest]

[Guest]

Also will ID cards still be issued with new passports from 2010?

And there is now no need to pay for an ID card on obtaining a new passport.

[capnbob]

[Guest]

Ah one must remember the way that politicians speak. They do indeed say exactly what they mean.

When Gordon Brown says that "ID cards will not be compulsory for British citizens" he is being precise in his language.

What he means is that, for British citizens -

When you get your passport renewed, you will be compelled to be registered on the NIR and will be forced to pay for said registration and for the ID card but you can opt not to have the card. This is because of the ultimately entirely useless "concession" that was created by the Lords, who endlessly argued about the meaning of the word NuLab "voluntary".

If course, what will happen is that most people will either not know or not care (it;s a cert that you will be assumed to want a card); the opt-out rate will be very low, and a cue for Government to say "most people are taking their ID card, there is obviously demand and puvlic support".

Equally important is the unstated not yet. NuLab are dead set on everyone having an ID card, and have already said that universal compulsion would be legislated if they are returned to power in the next general election.


The rest just seems to be some waffle about Biometric Pixie Dust and using your fingerprints in Tesco!

[stu2630]

[Guy Herbert]

[Antony]

[Guest]

I think you will find that what Brown said is quite clear. He is to use passports to drive forward the database state.

[capnbob]

[Guy Herbert]

I think it is significant that he comes out to push the scheme immediately after The Guardian's new year leader said he should abandon it.

The government is much more deeply wedded to centralised state ID management (as the fuel of transformational government) than it is to ID cards per se, so neither of the compromises mentioned by capnbob would be likely to be of interest, because even 2 is not sufficiently joined-up (intrusive or inclusive, depending on which side of the argument you are). 'ID cards' are a political loss leader for the database state. If they had another way of selling the database state then they'd have gone for it by now.
_________________
Guy Herbert
General Secretary, NO2ID
general.secretary@no2id.net
(to contact me directly email. Don't use the forum messaging service.)

[capnbob]

[Guy Herbert]

[Guest]

There is nothing more centralising, more invasive of privacy and more inverting of state/public relationships than the NIR.

But I wonder what percentage of people even know what words these three innocuous-sounding letters stand for, let alone what plan they front?

My own guess would be less than 37% of people on the street could tell a pollster the correct answer; it would certainly be interesting if a national daily could conduct a poll.

[stu2630]

Capnbob

I think Brown's "acceptable" option is utterly unacceptable and he should get stuffed! The idea of compelling everyone to be interrogated, fingerprinted and entered onto a national register, and punished if we fail to give them information is exactly what we should be most concerned about.

If he wants an acceptable way out, may I suggest a bottle of scotch and a revolver. But I'll settle for a general election.

Stu

[Guest]

[capnbob]

Stu - read my "acceptable" option more closely... no NIR!

Guy - I was never in doubt, but it is always nice to be reassured that you are a few steps ahead... thanks.
_________________
Rob Findlay
But we have nothing to hide or be ashamed of... I see how everybody votes for the Benefactor and everybody sees how I vote for the Benefactor. We

[DeeBee]

capnbob:

I agree with Stu, the 'acceptable' option is totally unacceptable.
'A compulsory ID Card which need not be carried....'

Or possibly a tattoo that need not be visible when clothed?

Brown's no less a liar than Blair ever was and trying to weazel his way out with this sort of bollocks is only to be expected.

My answer is no; no to ID and no to NIR. Simple.