NO2ID

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objecti ... _page.html

3 July 2006

FINGERPRINT SCANDAL OF 700,000 KIDS

EXCLUSIVE Schools storing data triggers fears

By Bob Roberts, Deputy Political Editor

FURY erupted yesterday after it emerged an estimated 700,000 children are being fingerprinted at school.

Systems in 3,500 primary school libraries allow pupils to take out books by scanning their thumb prints instead of using a card.

But campaigners warn the technology is a massive invasion of privacy and a step towards a "database state".

With an average primary school size of 200 pupils, pressure group No2ID says at least 700,000 pupils are regularly having their fingerprints scanned.

And there are fears schools having children's fingerprints could lead to the information being stored on government computers with DNA records and personal details.

It is also seen as "softening up" resistance before people are asked for biometric data such as eye-scans to put on compulsory identity cards.

Phil Booth of No2ID said: "Are we sending our kids to school or to prison? We wouldn't accept fingerprinting for adults without informed consent so it is utterly outrageous that children as young as five are being targeted."

...

"But this can make libraries a really cool place to go for children."

Idiot. It is not cool to vote, it is not cool to talk about politics, it is not cool to rat on people to the police, it is not cool to hang out with your parents.

Being cool is not a replacement for being good. Where do they get these muppets from.

You would think that this is an infringement on a childs rights.

Does anyone know what European courts think of it and have they legislated for it to be carried out.

Do they have written permission from the parents to carry this out, I remember my parents not being allowed to take photos at my sisters school play, Isn't that the same thing?

I doubt it!
The guy selling the systems says there haven't been objections from the parents, but is this simply because they weren't given any advance notice of the scheme?

Other threads, in Open Forum (sorry, in a rush so can't go find link for you), have been started in recent weeks by parents who were shocked to learn that their child had been fingerprinted without their knowledge, let alone their consent.

There was also an interesting thread at one point started by a young person who didn't want to be fingerprinted at 6th from, but was under the impression that they didn't really have a choice.

Of course, it's really a way to prepare the populace for the database state, in which one has to present biometrics before using a public lavatory.

Children, probably do find it "cool". But then, children are very easily lead and are very naive.

There are many things that children would find "cool" that they have to be protected against, such as the nice man who turns up at the playground offering sweets or a trip in his car to see some puppies. Young children find it a difficult concept that anyone, partcularly an adult (or worse still, an adult authority figure such as a teacher), is anything but totally benevolent.

It's easy to see where this is going. The next generation will accept it as completely normal that their every move will be tracked with cameras, they will have to present their ID card several dozen times a day, and that being fingerprinted etc is nothing unusual.

If you read Stephen Baxter's books, there's a very chilling little line which says "The hotel was a friendly place, requiring only a DNA scan verified by Interpol at the booking desk".

Do you people have something to hide?

I find it laughable that anyone in their right mind could or would be offended by the optional taking of a single thumbprint to allow a child to take out a book from a resourse centre.

And I do the stress the word optional as the article clearly states library cards and numbers will be issued should the child not want to participate.

Sharing the information would be clearly a violation of the DPA and I am told by a librarian that the database is cleared at the end of the childs period at the school. The use of technology such as this clearly appeals to the children more than issuing a simple library card and I for one will not argue about anything that in the long run makes my child spend more time reading and learning.



What the hell is all that about?

How old are you? If you are over the age of 15 then you should take a long look at what you have just said.

I do not wish to insult anyone that has posted because everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion but I have to say that some of the replies sound like the talk of conspiracy buffs. What exactly are you afraid of?

James 76 said "What exactly are you afraid of?".

Loss of privacy. Loss of control over personal data. Identity theft.

Personal info and biometrics should only ever be given out on a strict 'Need to know' principle. The government does not need to know what my fingerprint look like. End of argument. No appeals are permitted.

Black Cloud

Firstly the government probably dont know what your fingerprints look like unless of course you have been arrested... or like some people on this forum seem to believe, have used Junior Librarian which of course has a direct link the NAFIS system to check to see if your 5-7 year old child is indeed wanted for murder (sic).

Which leads me on to my next point. Identity theft? How is this ever going to happen from a locked down non-accessable school computer system. Has a 5-7 year old child got the technological skills to infiltate the system and download the childrens info? Surely not. Wait maybe a teacher could do it?!...yes and open a credit in the name of 5-7 year old child as credit card companies ALWAYS give cards out to pre-pubescent children dont me.

Do not get me wrong I'm fully for what the majority of people on this board want but IMO this is taking it a little too far!

"And I do the stress the word optional as the article clearly states library cards and numbers will be issued should the child not want to participate. "

This does not seem to be optional at the point that it is initiated.

What option does a 5 year old child have when a librarian or teacher asks them to place their thumb on a scanner. They have no awareness of the larger issues at play.

If you are happy with your children having their fingerprints scanned then that's fine.

But I do not want my children's fingerprints taken at any time. If, when they are adults they make an informed choice to have their fingerprints taken then that's fine. I will disagree with them, but that's their choice.

"Idiot. It is not cool to vote, it is not cool to talk about politics, it is not cool to rat on people to the police, it is not cool to hang out with your parents."

The companies spokesman said that this is a cool system to have in the library. Cool is not a measure of whether a system is good or not. I was merely pointing out that a lot of what children think is cool. (Depending mainly on which neighbourhood you live in), is not necessary what we would want in our society.

I was not condoning these actions, merely pointing out that these are some of the actions of children who think they are cool.

and no I have nothing to hide from the state as it is. But if in the future the govenment turns out to be repressive or totalitarian or passes laws that are deeply unfair (the poll tax) or commits its self to an illegal war. I would want to freely be able to peacfully demonstate protest or be non compliant against that. Without being tracked and monitored by the state, and be marked, for such actions. This is entirly possible under this governments plans for its ID cards and NIR.

The taking of fingerprints off our children is not necissary and is merely an excercise by the companies and goverment to get the next generation used to the idea that this as a normal way for them to live thier lives. I don't think it's right at all, but you obviously do.

It's quite clear what the many who post on this forum are afraid of, but I'll spell it out for you:

An already untrustworthy government, with a Prime Minister acknowledged by the press and many of the public to have lied, gaining further control over the population and inverting the relationship we have enjoyed until recently where they are our elected servants.

It is not surprising that the whole process of accustomising the population to Identity Cards would start with seemingly small steps within an innocent population. Fingerprinting children for ANY reason is not normal or desirable. It is seen by many on this forum as the unhealthy and highly suspicious act that it is. The fact that it may be termed 'optional' is neither here nor there. Many children would not naturally wish to go against the perceived wishes of their school, and many parents would not think to question, initially, what the school is up to. That is because people still prefer to live with a trust in our institutions, which have never abused us to this extent before.

As for your chanting of the sinister and deliberately passive-aggressive mantra of 'Nothing to hide, nothing to fear', well I'm afraid you are in the wrong forum for anyone any longer to see that as anything but a badge of the New Labour establishment. An establishment, I might add, that is falling apart at the seams - hence the desperate bid of ID cards and the National Identity Register.

Obviously not IT-experienced.




Sure!

But...

James 76

I can see your point, that my reaction may be over the top. But its merely been fuelled by the Governments and companies targeting of my children in the future. Which could be an emotive subject for anyone, never mind for someone like myself who opposess the ID card scheme.

But can you see my point, I can see yours, I just don't happen to agree with it. You obviously trust the government more than I do. I wish I could trust the Government. then I wouldn't have to spend hours handing out leaflets to people in the street.

Ah thank you Richardo that was a well measured reponse. I now know what you meant.

I dont think the government have had any say in the creation of this product as its made by a private company and I am absolutely positive that Micro Librarian Systems haven't got any intention of using it as an excercise to get people used to offering their fingerprints out.

I think that the idea behind it is to introduce a little fun and perhaps a little more interest for the child in using a schools resource centre and as I stated before I have no problem with this as it will encourage my child to spend more time in the library learning. This is surely a safer environment than the street. Of course I wouldn't want my childs fingerprints to be kept on file after he had left the school but the records are destroyed anyway so this is not the case.

Obviously not IT-experienced.

Actually I'm a C#, C++ and VB.NET developer

I also have extensive network experience and know that Junior Librarian and other library software are on stand alone servers and therefore unaccessable.

That was me by the way

I didn't mean it as an insult. It was just the manner in which it said. I also apologise to Richardo if he took it as one.

I'm surpised at you. Suffering from developer mindset, you imply IT security can be absolute. Security in IT is relative to the determination of someone to get access, as well as being relative to the security measures installed and how they are, in fact, used. Privately, I am sure you recognize that hackers rely on all manner of human errors, lazy habits, indiscretions, inside knowledge and bloody-minded persistence. If security was absolute, then why are banks, in particular, investing ever-more money in security whilst continuing to suffer data theft?

Not so long ago, school libraries struggled on without perceiving a need for access control via biometrics stored on 'locked-down' dedicated servers. Who set out to pervert that perception?

The only thing that should be locked down is YOU.

Do you know anything about IT or take notice of what I said?

A stand alone computer is a machine that doesn't havean internet connection or a connection with the outside world at all. Banks are totally different in the fact that they are connected to the outside world and yes are indeed a threat from hackers. The only way a hacker can get access to the information is to either break in to the school or have ESP.

I propose it should be YOU that is locked down for not accepting that someone is allowed to have a differing opinion to yourself.

"I think that the idea behind it is to introduce a little fun and perhaps a little more interest for the child in using a schools resource centre"

This is all very well but it is a short term attitude, When I was young (all those years ago ) and new technology was given to me. swipe cards and pin numbers to doors, I too thought these were kinda 'cool'. But It doesn't last very long, the new technology becomes old and normal.

This fingerprinting scheme is quite frankly a waste of money. Children are inspired to learn by good teachers and a wide curriculum that reflects their interests. Not whizzy technology.

The main point is why?

Why do they need this technology in schools in the first place?

it will piss off parents like myself and.

I suspect it is more costly to initiate than a card system, its probably been earmarked for extra government funding. In general a lot of targeted school funding is, according to a school teacher friend of mine.

Which is why they don't have enough money for basic equipment because all the money at the moment is being spent on computers and their upkeep and constant replacement.

So while it is a private company in charge of it they will be getting paid by the government. one way or another.

so while "Micro Librarian Systems haven't got any intention of using it as an exercise to get people used to offering their fingerprints out."

The government certainly would like people to get used to it. and what better way than to get the children used to it first.

Like I said before, if you trust the government (private company working with the government if you like) then that's your decision. But just remember all the innocent children whose DNA is still held by the police when they said that they would destroy that information from their system. Indeed, from what I can remember, at the time it was by law that they should have destroyed it and they kept it.

If I were you I would think long and hard about trusting this government. They have lost the trust of millions of people and until a government comes in a earns that trust back I will view everything that the British government says and does with a great deal of scepticism.

I didn't want to be distrustful of the government, they made me distrustful of them. (note: this goes for Tories and Labour by the way).


"Ah thank you Richardo that was a well measured response. I now know what you meant."

no problem I like to have discussion's about these things.


"I didn't mean it as an insult. It was just the manner in which it said. I also apologise to Richardo if he took it as one."

it's OK no harm done, I obviously didn't explain myself properly first time round.

My career in IT started in 1976 using Espol on a Burroughs 6700 mainframe, one of the first computers designed with networking in mind. I have since worked for IBM, Hewlett Packard and a couple of major software houses in both database and network design.

Your assumptions about security strike me as a little immature. Of course any system unconnected to a network cannot be hacked via a network, but there are many other vulnerabilites, as I pointed out. Whilst there may be no obvious vulnerability in the school library system under discussion, my experience is that if anyone wanted to obtain data from it, then they probably could. Just don't talk about systems being secure in an absolute sense when all security is relative.

Just what is it that is at risk from hackers here, from a fingerprint-based library system, that is not also present in a card-based library system? And what value is that thing to hackers? Please think carefully on this.

And concerning benefits, library cards get mislaid or forgotten rather frequently; children's fingers less so. The cost of card and fingerprint readers is not now so different that it removes the benefit of a card-free library system.

As to conditioning the children for accepting on our behalf a police state, as and when they have the vote, perhaps practicing to read will help them get sufficient education that they can differentiate a real danger from hysteria.

Best regards

Right ok...so you are saying the info is secure from hackers yes ? Cos I cannot see how at all how the information could be of any use ven if Joe Public walked in off the street and downloaded the info to a cd and rapidly made his exit.

As you are aware every persons fingerprint is made up of unique identifiers which are called minutae.

The biometric engine that Identikit uses is able to extract these minutae, digitize them (1s and Os) and then encrypts (128 bit encryption methodology) them into a 300 byte template.

At this point, this template (even if you were able to break the encryption) would only be made up of these individual datapoints which could never be assembled to recreate a persons fingerprint image (somewhat like connect the dots without knowing how the dots are assembled and what their relationship is to each other.)