NO2ID

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has unveiled the design for the controversial new identity card.

From 2011 everyone over the age of 16 applying for a passport will have their details added to a national identity register.

This is therefore something the Conservatives will have to implement.

Moderation: Broken URL removed, thread moved from "Articles" to "Discussion"

Err, why? I don't follow.

This is still something that bugs me too. The NIR by stealth using the passport database.

The Conservatives will be in power for a decision already set.

No Parliament can bind its successor. Policies can be scrapped and contracts cancelled. David Davis, for the Tories, has already written to potential suppliers and the cabinet office warning them of the party's intention to do so.

But what data will they collect and retain for passports - the Tories I mean.

Having everyone over the age of 16 applying for a passport to have their details added to a national identity register requires no cancellation of a contract. The information is given voluntarily, why would any government want to scrap that?

Bear in mind that the National Identity Register does not yet exist.

True but some kind of database will have to exist for passport data retention under Labour or the Tories.

Yes, but not a database that is updated continually every time any organisation attempts to verify your identity. It doesn't bother me that IPS know the address at which I was living when I last applied for a passport. The idea of having to tell them every time I move house, and being monitored from afar, is far more horrific.

But the data is still to be collected and retained and could be copied to an NIR in the future.

And where on earth do you think they store data for current passports? A large filing cabinet. Of course there is a database. The issue is what information does it store (the current passport database only has the address when you made the application); who has access to that information; what records are kept when that information is accessed; who has access to that audit trail.

But that's true today with the current passport database. Don't forget that the NIR, based on the current plans, is going to be derived in large part from existing government databases e.g. at the DWP.

No need to get angry toward me! And where do you think all the data for the new biometric details is going to go - a large filing cabinet?

Nah I didn't think so.

The issue is that any new details can later be transferred by the Tories to an NIR of some kind was they are all collected.

Any new data will also be added and collectively as you have admitted to, any future government can do what it wants with all that data - even a Tory one!

But I am not sure what your real concern is.

The situation today, without the NIR, is that data is collected and stored as part of passport application and renewal and that data could be used by future governments in any number of ways.

If the Identity Cards Act is repealed by the Tories so there is no NIR then there will be no need for NIR registration as part of passport application. But, data will be still be stored as part of the passport application and renewal process just as it is today and could be used by future governments in any number of ways. The difference will be that without the NIR there will no audit trail of identity verification actions which could serve as a means of surveillance.

Perhaps you could clarify.

Exactly. The data will still be added and could form thwe basis or or merge into an NIR in the future.

What I am saying is that the Tories can't be trusted no more or less than New Labour, even if they don't go ahead with the NIR for ID cards.

I see. The issue of a trust, or lack of it, in politcians, political parties and the political process is far broader than our remit here at NO2ID. Our aim is to get politicians to commit to do away with NIS and reign back the database state. Re-engineering the political process to ensure that they honour those commitments is, I would suggest, a greater undertaking.

If the Tories, Liberal Democrats and other parties make that commitment should we turn round to them and say "Thanks but no thanks - we don't believe you"?

I am not saying we become political I am saying the database will be in place for future governments to do with what they wish and I do not believe that the Tories will always be so against the use of biometric data for access to services etc.

Yes I think we should say to the Tories and Lib Dems that we do not believe that in the future you will always oppose the use of databases for access to services.

Unless they oppose the retention of biometric data collected for passports.

But databases are already used for access to services today. If you receive benefits, go to the doctors then your entitlement to access those services is verified by reference to a database.

The issue we are concerned about is the combination of an identity card plus a database which has visibility, by virtue of auditing identity verification events, of ALL of the services you access.

The collection of biometric data in and of itself is not my main worry (although I am concerned about the accuracy, the implications of loss or theft of those biometrics). For example, if biometrics were stored locally on the card and verified locally - in the same way that your photo (a biometric) is stored on the passport and then verified locally by the person at border control that would be far less of a concern than if they were stored centrally on a database.

I am far more concerned about the NIR, with or without biometrics for the reasons outlined above and welcome the committment from the Tories and the LibDems not to go ahead with it.

Finally, if the Tories, LibDems and others set they opposed the retention of biometric data why would you believe them if you don't believe them about their other commitments.

But the passport database is different as the government is already linking it to ID cards use.




But it isn't going to be on the card - in any case I never want an ID card fullstop, never.

But the passport database could be used to form the NIR. And the Tories can never say if they will never do so.

I don't believe the Tories concerning their opposition to retention of biometric data because they will allow non-EU foreign nationals to have an ID card and therefore the start of an ID card database that can be added to concerning UK citizens over time.

The Tories do not oppose biometric data retention for passports either so therefore another database that can be migrated to the ID cards database for non-EU foreign nationals.

Not yet they aren't. The NIR has not been implemented and there is currently no requirement to register for an ID card in order to get a passport.

I wasn't suggesting it was. My point was that we should not get fixated on the collection of biometrics.

And I don't want an ID card either.

Indeed it could. But any number of other government databases could to - including those used by the DWP (indeed the DWP's CIS database IS going to be used to form part of the NIR if it ever gets implemented.

But the Tories HAVE said they are opposed to the NIS and the NIR and will repeal the legislation. I agree that they could still implement the equivalent of an NIR under another name under another piece of legislation but then they could do all sorts of things in the future. Are you suggesting that political parties, as well as saying what they plan to do as part of their manifestos should also state what they will never do in perpetuity. That could be a long list.

The cards introduced yesterday weren't ID cards. They were the government spinning card-based visa stamps as ID cards. They are not governed by the same legislation. Not to say I support them (see Cory Doctorow's great perspective here:
http://www.boingboing.net/2008/09/26/britain-will-make-fo.html

According to all that the Tories have said your therefore does not apply. They have stated that they are opposed to the ID card system and the National Identity Register. There is absolutely no reason why the implementation of card-based visas for non-EEA nationals who want to work here etc necessarily leads to the NIS.

There is a fundamental difference between "can" and "will".

I am going to call it quits now as it seems you are not prepared to believe what any politicians say so it is futile to debate further as you will simply turn round and say "but they could ..."

Yes I agree there is no point in debating the issue as you have one view and I another, but of course politicians could always and mostly do do the opposite of what they promised to do!

The futility is in believing what politicians say in the first place - as you seem to be doing!

"Don't tell him Pike!"

Oh and by the way - when the passport database has been fully propogated with the latest information, should another Labour government take office after the Tories have f**ked things up, they could continue where the current set of jokers left off.