NO2ID

For what it's worth this might be helpful (or not!):

First of all try and relax. Thankfully we still live in a country where speaking up about this kind of thing doesn't generate either a visit from the bully boys or the end of any career prospects.

It's fair to say that your child's fingerprints are almost certainly stored as a numerical hash (not a photograph), which is pretty difficult (if not impossible), to reconstruct as a 'print'. The problem, as I see it, is much more: a. your wishes have been ignored and your integrity questioned; b. you have no idea what happens to the data (they may say it's deleted, but is it?); and c. the whole process is conditioning children to give up biometric information willy-nilly as though it's perfectly safe and unexceptional---bad news.

Remember the old adage: 'Don't get mad; get even'. That doesn't have to mean setting out to get revenge, much better if it means sitting down and working out what is the most constructive and sensible thing to do that will actually sort things out.

Remember there are two sides (at least), to every story. I think I would feel pretty upset in your position. The folk at the school probably feel angry and/or scared. Angry that something they believe is a good idea is being needlessly undermined, OR that they are being compelled to do something they don't really believe in themselves. Scared that because of what has happened with your son (and others?), they are going to end up in front of a disciplinary hearing and maybe with a black mark against their names.

Perhaps this is the time to try and step back, take a deep breath, and then try to bring about some kind of formal conclusion/way forward that doesn't involve backing anyone into a corner where they feel they have to fight.

You could, as I have done---though fortunately I had warning and got in before anything had happened---write a conciliatory letter which at the same time says very firmly that you appreciate the school can be under pressure to adopt 'new' ideas and policies, regardless of whether they are actually any good, but that the school is not to take or use your child's biometrics under any circumstances without your express written consent (and set out your reasons), and go on to say you are very willing to discuss alternatives, etc. That is, pitch it so it sounds like you understand them and want to work with them, but without compromising your own position.

If you feel some kind of face to face meeting would be helpful, make sure you take a witness (who is not a member of your family or otherwise likely to be seen as biased---and who can be trusted to basically keep their mouth shut, they aren't there to argue your case!), and try really hard not to lose your temper, it never helps even if it does feel cathartic at the time.

Okay, that's probably quite enough. Really hope you get things sorted out.

oh my god!!... i am furious for you... how dare they questions your child about this issue without first asking you.. AND without asking if you wish to be present!!... isn't that illegal??

how many of them questioned him? under what circumstances? HOW DARE THEY!!...
who are these witnesses??

this is just disgraceful.. and these people are trusted to look after our children...
I would continue to complain - very loudly- they should not be allowed to get away with this.. i am sorry that my response is not more measured and calm but i am absolutely disgusted that any school could have the nerve to write that letter to you....

Hey Adair, as much as you have given some sound advice here I have to just correct you on the point you made above..

it is not that difficult to reconvert that number to a fingerprint, this is now widely accepted in many academic circles. the number is still unique to that child and obviously has to correlate to the childs fingerprint!

the manufacturers claim that it is not possible to reconvert this code into a fingerprint but the evidence points to the contrary...
on the www.leavethemkidsalone.com website they point out that what is stored has to be similar - eg... like the similarity between a photo and a drawing otherwise they system simply wouldn't work...

these manufacturers make these grand claims, but give no evidence to back it up and people end up just repeating it without checking...

oh that last post was me too...

I take your point about that, but so far the evidence I have seen suggests that yes it is possible, but a. you have to be pretty determined, and b. there is no guarantee it will succeed. There are plenty of variables involved, including the nature of the hash itself. As with most things there are plenty of ways to skin the cat, some are much easier to crack than others.

Make a full official complaint to your local education authority, the school staff had no right to interview a child following an initial complaint from his mother. I see no need for a conciliatory approach, as once again Stasi methods have been used. Stasi is not a word to be used lightly, but it is a very apt description of methods used in schools all over the UK to impose their will on parents and pupils regarding biometrics, ie Morley.

Keep us posted.

I strongly disagree with the idea of making 'a full official complaint to your local education authority' in the first instance unless there is a very compelling justification.

Until the parent is quite clear what exactly was going on, and why, I would think a 'conciliatory' approach is very sensible at this stage simply because it is generally the 'cock up' principle rather than the 'conspiracy' principle that lies behind institutional/professional mistakes.

Unless the parent discovers a genuine 'conspiracy', i.e. intentional bad behaviour/malpractice, this is far more likely to be a case of people acting with what they believe are good motives and intentions and duly making a hash of it because they haven't really thought it through. The parent will have to continue to relate to and work with these people on into the future and the child will still be in their care.

What can possibly be gained by acting in a way that simply compounds the damage that has already been done? Much better, if possible, for everyone concerned to constructively repair the damage and ensure similar mistakes are not made in the future.

If, on the other hand, there is evidence to say that someone has been acting with malign intent and/or breaking the law, then by all means they should be reported and dealt with; but otherwise surely we are dealing with ordinary people like ourselves who, despite their best efforts, don't always get things right. We need to ask ourselves how we would like to be treated if we had unintentionally got ourselves and others into a tangle that in the end, although an important matter of principle, is hardly the end of the world for those concerned (unless someone decides to make it so)?

I was hardly advocating all out war, but just pointing out that any parents decision regarding their child is sacrosanct and should not be questioned. It would appear that those involved in the incident are joining ranks, something that often happens in the medical profession when mistakes are made.

I'm with adair, although we may perceive what took place as offensive, these people probably didn't mean any harm and were simply ignorant. There's no need to fly off the handle just yet...

Hello all!

well after reading the letter again it 'seems' to point to a date last week when it is claimed I complained about my son being scanned.

Now on the date in question I was in hospital in agony and the subsequent 3 days after I was at home on strong painkillers and not complaining to anyone about scans!

I have written a letter today and cc'd to the Governing Chair as was the letter they sent me.. otherwise I would have just kept it to the head.

In the letter I simply say I have no idea what the April incident was, that their letter is implying I fabricated the events my children told me about in January, that I had already received a letter regarding the January incident and that we presumed the case was now closed as details HAD been removed.
I also said that I was very disappointed that my child was quizzed on the mental state of his mother and that in future I can be contacted for such 'health updates'.
And lastly I was honest and said that the letter has upset all of us all over again.

Sheesh! All we wanted was for NO biometric Data to be harvested from our children... and look at the upset and mess going on... I had NO idea that asking for my children to be excluded from this would cause us so much trouble. I truly feel like I am being intimidated now.

The vast majority of teachers these days seem to me to be just an arm of social services with 'education' way down the list of priorities. Some jobsworth could report you for 'emotional abuse' of your child or, if it was up and running, put a flag on the childrens index

Ha... Im already a vegetarian, home birthing, extended breastfeeding, sling wearing, ex home educating, anti war.... need I go on? I probably have so many flags I could start a parade!

This is precisely what happens to parents and students who oppose school biometrics. Are head teachers and librarians issued with a special Kafka handbook for such eventualities I wonder? They all seem to be following exactly the same script, it really is somewhat alarming.

At least there are parents and students out there who believe in the concept of self worth and will not behave like a docile mass.

B.T.W It may be worth contacting Leave Them Kids Alone for advice now that the situation appears to be ongoing.

Totally unrelated a mother of my daughters school friend called to ask if my daughter can go play today [strikes at school] so i said yes she is just getting her shoes on hubby will walk her round the corner to yours...

I dont talk to ANY of the parents much... just havent got round to it and dont feel in the 'zone'

Anyway I said "Oh... just a quick questions.. what are your thoughts on the library thumb scan system"

alarmingly... FIFTEEN WEEKS after the system was implemented she only found out from me today about it!!

I then out of curiosity looked at my daughters telephone book and picked a random friend of hers and called to speak to the motehr and asked if she knew who was doing teh petition at the school for the thumb scanning... she said "well when it is put in we will get consent forms so we can protest then I should imagine"

I said "It was set up in january"



No wonder I am in the minority... the rest of them are ignorant to it all.. well done school... even MI5 dont have that level of secrecy implemented!!

I am so lucky my son and I have a good relationship... we talk about everything and he felt natural telling me about his thumb scan in january else I too would be ignorant until... when who knows when???

I know this family as my son goes to the same school. The family have beens asked not to come back to the school because the mother was informing parents of the thumb scanning. Now everyone is too scared to mention it!

This is a very interesting and disturbing development. If what you say is true , then I doubt the legality of the school's actions. Once again a school is very anxious indeed to impose its will on parents and pupils with no questions asked. Just why is everyone too scared to mention it?

Are the family involved going to take the matter further? If so then let's hope that we hear more about it on this forum and also LTKA.

I agree with you for 1st party requests for personal data i.e. I would not be successful in making a request to say HMRC Child Benefit Office for details of personal data that they hold about me, because personal data is exempted from FOIA if the person making the request is the data subject - I would be successful in making my application in accordance with the provisions of subject access within DPA98.

However, I can make a request under FOIA for personal data (as defined by DPA98) for data concerning a 3rd party.

An example of this is the issue of constituent requests for MP financial data, made under FOIA. If you recall, the HC tried to use DPA98 to avoid disclosure of detailed breakdowns of travel expenses....

Richard Thomas disagreed,

http://www.out-law.com/page-6680


I expected you to be an ace at information law Geraint

Good heavens, why?! I'm an engineer not a lawyer.

The ICO has published guidance on the matter: Awareness guidance 1

Hi everyone - you all seem pretty informed and I feel like I've been asleep for the last 10 years!
My daughter started senior school Sept 3rd (I mean year/grade 7 seeing as we're all globally sharing school systems too!) on the 15th I found out that she had been fingerprinted and I'm furious I and her father were not asked - considering the 10 pages of consent forms we had to complete before her first day!
Anyway, I am sending a letter to the school today (recorded delivery) and copying in my Conservative MP - I am also sending a copy to the local newspaper and Parents Association.
I will post the news of my situation as I get responses and hopefully it will encourage parents to pursue this "right" of ours.

This maybe helpful to others..... I included in the letter..........

As ******'s mother I am exercising my "parental responsibility" this is from the UK GOV. WEBSITE they use this against us when we don't comply! and "allowing confidential information about the child to be disclosed" from same website
also Quote the FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT 2000 giving you the right to know WHAT info WHERE and HOW used and distributed and WHO to - Good Luck
and I'll be back x

Good Luck! Do please let us know how you get on. You may also be able to get help and advice from "Leave Them Kids Alone":

http://www.leavethemkidsalone.com/

Thanks Andrew - I just read through a few posts and followed the link - they are so informed and I'm amased by whats been slipped past us - it's pretty scarey!
I'm thinking about handing out flyers at the school soon.
If everyones' asleep like I was - this will be a walkover for the GOV.

If I buy a few stickers from NO2ID do you think they'll send me leaflets to hand out to? If I ask of course!

I suggest you join NO2ID (£15), and ask the office to send you some leaflets or flyers to hand out:

http://www.no2id.net/getInvolved/join.php

Email office@no2id.net to discuss what sort of flyers they could best send you, and how many.

Are you near an established NO2ID local group? If so, linking up with them would be a good way to help spread the word. Check the local groups list here:

http://www.no2id.net/localGroups

If you aren't near a local group, you could consider starting one - it's not hard! Contact Matty Mitford <local.groups@no2id.net> if you're interested.

Thanks again Andrew...

There's not a group in my specific area so I'm going to contact the nearest one to see if it's best to join them or start a new one here.

This whole business just gets worse and worse for me as my eyes become widened - in my first post I said I must have been asleep! I was - I was prescribed PROZAC for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. After reading up about FLUORIDE the dots are starting to connect rapidly!
I suddenly came off PROZAC when an incident shocked the hell out of me! I behaved in a totally abnormal way (as a normally firey type person) on PROZAC I became a complete zombie and didn't react at all. My family looked at me as if I'd had a lobotomy, as I was uncommuicative and docile. I couldn't work at all - I think I just slept - I can't remember!
It has affected my memory - I have real difficulty remembering stuff from the time I was taking PROZAC until about 3 weeks after I stopped.

I'm onboard and alert now and will definately join NO2ID - I want to be gened-up on laws (if any) where & when I can hand out flyers etc..
I've copied all the info you've given me Andrew thanks again and I will keep you updated with my progress concerning the school situation et al.

Many many thanks all info appreciated

I would advise anyone having a face to face conversation to take a hidden tape recorder to ensure that inaccuracies do not occur later regarding any allegation during a meeting.
Years ago I was harrassed by my local authority because I comitted the sin of having three cats in my flat. I arranged a meeting and taped the entire threatening conversation. I then rang the manager and informed him of the taped conversation. He asked if the staff knew they were being recorded. W I said that they hadn't any idea and if the harrassment didn't stop I would be forced to release the contents of the tape.
At this point the harrassment ceased.
Jacksfullofaces