Photographs

Guest · **Posted:** Tue, 01 Apr 2008 14:52:44 +0000

So, we've been told that in a few weeks - our school will be photographing all members of our sixth form to add to their "SIMS" database.. But, what right do I have to say no? And what can/can't they do if I don't comply?

I don't know if anyone knows of "SIMS" but basically it's the system they use for the registers and this apparent database. I realise at this point it's just a photograph, but I feel they already have the neccessary details of me on it, and I feel they just haven't made their case for it.

Storm · **Posted:** Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:01:25 +0000

Thanks for bringing this up - we've got SIMS in place at my school, and they've got photos of the students on it. I've been wondering if I can ask to have my photo removed, so it'd be nice to see if anyone's got any advice/answers.

--Storm

Folland · **Joined:** Sun, 17 Jun 2007 20:21:53 +0000 **Posts:** 79

The things that todays students have to put up with. Speak to the other students, see how they feel about this, although expect a lot of apathy along the lines of Oh well, if you have nothing to hide..... I would be inclined to decline permission to be photographed.

What on earth is the SIMS database exactly? Please pop back to this forum and let us know how you get on.

Guest · **Posted:** Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:08:20 +0000

Folland wrote:

The things that todays students have to put up with. Speak to the other students, see how they feel about this, although expect a lot of apathy along the lines of Oh well, if you have nothing to hide..... I would be inclined to decline permission to be photographed.

What on earth is the SIMS database exactly? Please pop back to this forum and let us know how you get on.

Generally, in the few people I've spoken to about it - they don't mind their photographs being taken.. On the whole, though, they're atleast happy to agree that I have a point. But I seem the only one willing to oppose the scheme, or atleast question their right to photographing me without being told much more than "it's going on our database". Nothing about who can access it, how long they will keep it for, or even why they need it.

SIMS (School Information Management System?) basically started out as the electronic school register, but it now seems to have expanded - it now holds most of our details such as address and date of birth (that much I know). I have even seen it list details specific to things such as how many months a child is into their birthday. The school justified the individual photographs of the rest of the school by stating one of its uses for supply teachers to identify misbehaving pupils.. I see on one website, it can also be used for managing school dinners and one site appears to mention how it seems to be contracted by various LEAs and then is the main software for managing databases within that local authority area.

Folland · **Joined:** Sun, 17 Jun 2007 20:21:53 +0000 **Posts:** 79

Very interesting indeed, it sounds to me like the Data Protection Act is being breached by allowing what appears to be casual access to these photographs. Say no and see what happens, and if you are under 18, then I'm sure that your parents/guardians have a say in the matter. I presume that prior consultation has taken place?

I really cannot believe what I am reading about the antics of educational establishments these days. It would seem that students are under more surveilance than inmates of Her Majesty's Prisons.

Guest · **Posted:** Wed, 02 Apr 2008 17:27:38 +0000

Folland wrote:

Very interesting indeed, it sounds to me like the Data Protection Act is being breached by allowing what appears to be casual access to these photographs. Say no and see what happens, and if you are under 18, then I'm sure that your parents/guardians have a say in the matter. I presume that prior consultation has taken place?

I really cannot believe what I am reading about the antics of educational establishments these days. It would seem that students are under more surveilance than inmates of Her Majesty's Prisons.

I remember at the start of the year, in their general data collection forms such as emergency contact details, one sheet asked if permission was allowed for photographs.. But I'm sure I left that blank - I mean, I wasn't prepared to give them unrestricted rights to photograph me.. But other than that, no other mention has been made of it.

I asked someone younger in the school, who was aware of their photgraphs on the system, but said the school had just taken them from the yearly photographs (you know the ones where they offer your parents to buy them afterwards). I don't know if I'm in the position to question how they went about this, as I can't be too sure how much parents for the rest of the school know about this.

While it doesn't really affect me too much, it does concern me though that while fingerprints in the library are only needed if you take a book out - it's compulsory throughout year 7. It seems the school is catching them while they are young.

..Since we've mentioned the data protection act, when I leave school - do I have the right to request that my details are removed? Also, am I able to request all of the data the school holds on me to see exactly how extensive their system is?

allanj · **Posted:** Wed, 02 Apr 2008 18:01:08 +0000

It is my understanding that under the data protection legislation you can ask the schools data controller to see any and all information that they hold on you, you can also challenge what they hold on you if you deem it to be incorrect. I know this is the case in the workplace, or has been in the last few companies I have worked for. There is normally a small charge however most companies do not charge their current employees, I know I never have.

Also by allowing just anyone to access the records of pupils to identify whether or not that person has caused problems I believe is wrong, to be able to access someones file you must be pretty sure that you know who the person is who has caused the trouble not just surf the files to see if you recognise someone unless you are trying to find someone who has committed a crime, which is very unlikely in a school.

From the Data Protection Act

Quote:

Right of access to personal data

(1) Subject to the following provisions of this section and to sections 8 and 9, an individual is entitled—

(a) to be informed by any data controller whether personal data of which that individual is the data subject are being processed by or on behalf of that data controller,

(b) if that is the case, to be given by the data controller a description of—

(i) the personal data of which that individual is the data subject,

(ii) the purposes for which they are being or are to be processed, and

(iii) the recipients or classes of recipients to whom they are or may be disclosed,

(c) to have communicated to him in an intelligible form—

(i) the information constituting any personal data of which that individual is the data subject, and

(ii) any information available to the data controller as to the source of those data, and

(d) where the processing by automatic means of personal data of which that individual is the data subject for the purpose of evaluating matters relating to him such as, for example, his performance at work, his creditworthiness, his reliability or his conduct, has constituted or is likely to constitute the sole basis for any decision significantly affecting him, to be informed by the data controller of the logic involved in that decision-taking.

(2) A data controller is not obliged to supply any information under subsection (1) unless he has received—

(a) a request in writing, and

(b) except in prescribed cases, such fee (not exceeding the prescribed maximum) as he may require.

(3) A data controller is not obliged to comply with a request under this section unless he is supplied with such information as he may reasonably require in order to satisfy himself as to the identity of the person making the request and to locate the information which that person seeks.

(4) Where a data controller cannot comply with the request without disclosing information relating to another individual who can be identified from that information, he is not obliged to comply with the request unless—

(a) the other individual has consented to the disclosure of the information to the person making the request, or

(b) it is reasonable in all the circumstances to comply with the request without the consent of the other individual.

The following link may help however as with most legislation it takes a bit of reading to make sense of it.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/Acts1998/uk ... 80029_en_1

Guest · **Posted:** Wed, 02 Apr 2008 18:41:56 +0000

Thanks for the link.. I've drafted a letter, but would appreciate any comments or criticisms about it and how I could improve it, if anybody doesn't mind.

Quote:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I would like to request a copy of all personal information held about me by ... Comprehensive School which I am entitled to be informed of under section 7(1) of the Data Protection Act 1998. Specifically, this involves a description of the data and the recipients or classes of recipients of whom the data may have been disclosed. Please be aware that I am entitled to request a copy of this information with any unintelligible terms explained, to be given any information available as to the sources of the data, to be given an explanation as to how any automated decisions taken about me have been made and the logic involved in any of these automated decisions.

If you need further information from me, or a fee, please let me know as soon as possible. Additionally, if you do not normally handle these requests, please pass this letter on towards your Data Protection Officer or Controller.

Yours faithfully,

I am aware it's quite short - I excluded the point about why information is being processed about me.. But should I still include this, to make sure my letter is extensive?

Also, I have just read:

Quote:

The data controller is obliged to reply promptly and, in any event, within 40 days, provided that you have paid any necessary fee.

If a data controller reasonably requires additional information to deal with the subject access request, provided the data controller tells the data subject what he requires the data controller does not have to deal with the request until this additional information has been received.

The 40 day time limit is calculated from the day on which the data controller has both the required fee and the necessary information to confirm the identity of the data subject and to locate the data.
There are different periods for requests for copies of credit files (7 days) and for school pupil records (15 school days).

Will this require the school to reply within 15 school days? Should I be ware of any other variations for access requests relating to school pupils?

Thanks.

Folland · **Joined:** Sun, 17 Jun 2007 20:21:53 +0000 **Posts:** 79

Anonymous wrote:

While it doesn't really affect me too much, it does concern me though that while fingerprints in the library are only needed if you take a book out - it's compulsory throughout year 7. It seems the school is catching them while they are young.

Compulsory? Where on earth are year seven's parents or are they indifferent? I very much doubt the legality of this. School biometrics are certainly gathering a very worrying momentum. Connected with this apparently is the taking of photographs.

Guest · **Posted:** Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:19:23 +0000

The photographs were today, although I just avoided them completely.. They even took pictures of pupils in year 13, despite the fact that they are only at the sixth form for another five weeks.

Yesterday, there were just notices dotted about, stating how "Everyone MUST be in tomorrow at 9.10 for SIMS photographs" - still no explanation as to why they really need them..

This morning, as I understood it, everyone there was given a barcode and then sent for their photographs to be taken. This barcode was held on a music stand, with the pupils behind.. And then they just took their photographs. Painless as it sounds, and as much as I received the "it's just a photograph" argument from friends, I still disagree with the idea.

I wasn't challenged at all by anyone though, so I'm still waiting for that to happen.. I don't know whether it's really even a point I should be trying to make - I've considered the "it's just a database", "the school aren't going to do anything with it"..

Guest · **Posted:** Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:41:26 +0000

If "it's just a database", "the school aren't going to do anything with it" why go to all the trouble of creating barcodes and taking photographs---it all takes time and money. I'm not suggesting there's anything sinister, but simply why go for an all singing, etc. solution when something much simpler, less intrusive, less vulnerable to error and misuse, will do the job just as effectively. It's a matter of principle and good practice.

Occam's Razor is a jolly good principle to work by, although Occam wasn't thinking about databases, etc. Simply put: until there is evidence to indicate otherwise the simplest solution is usually the best/most likely one.

Anyway, all the best in your so far 'unnoticed' protest/rebellion against the all consuming powers of the digital consumerist materialist swarm. Perhaps that could be more simply put too!

Folland · **Joined:** Sun, 17 Jun 2007 20:21:53 +0000 **Posts:** 79

Anonymous wrote:

Yesterday, there were just notices dotted about, stating how "Everyone MUST be in tomorrow at 9.10 for SIMS photographs" - still no explanation as to why they really need them..

This morning, as I understood it, everyone there was given a barcode and then sent for their photographs to be taken. This barcode was held on a music stand, with the pupils behind.. And then they just took their photographs. Painless as it sounds, and as much as I received the "it's just a photograph" argument from friends, I still disagree with the idea.

Barcodes as well? This sounds incredible, not to mention sinister. Back in the 1980s no student would have stood for this, such a pity that your friends are behaving like sheep.

I'm sure that this Forum will view with interest any further developements.

Doctor_Wibble · **Joined:** Tue, 11 Apr 2006 13:02:46 +0000 **Posts:** 2850

Anonymous wrote:

This barcode was held on a music stand, with the pupils behind.. And then they just took their photographs.

What, no profile shot? And normally the suspects hold the card with the number and don't get the luxury of a music stand.

Did everyone get fingerprinted as well?

Guest · **Posted:** Thu, 01 May 2008 17:56:29 +0000

Doctor_Wibble wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Did everyone get fingerprinted as well?

Nope..

Just a slight note that today I heard a teacher comment to another student in the sixth form how their photograph wasn't on the system - I missed whatever happened next, but as I've heard, he was told that not having one means that he'd need to move somewhere else (another sixth form). Although, no official letters or anything have been sent to anyone who didn't have their photographs taken - and I'm still waiting to find out myself what the school plan to do next. It'd be interesting to see if the school would go that far..

CaptainBeaky · **Posted:** Fri, 02 May 2008 11:27:48 +0000

Can they go that far?

Guest · **Posted:** Fri, 02 May 2008 14:21:58 +0000

CaptainBeaky wrote:

Can they go that far?

..As sixth form is voluntary, is it not a case of simply denying his application for next year?

MrBester · **Posted:** Wed, 14 May 2008 17:19:53 +0000

I'd love to see their reasons for refusal (they have to give reasons, and I don't think "we're oversubscribed" will wash). I don't know of any state funded educational establishment where having a photograph of yourself behind a music stand with a barcode on it is mandatory for attendance. Maybe that is changing...

NO2ID

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