NO2ID

Are ID Cards prepping the UK for a 3rd world war with ISLAM?

No.

The bureaucracy has pushed them regardless of the foreign policy situation and generally on domestic grounds. They are seen as an universal bureaucratic tool for monitoring and controlling an unruly public who live inconveniently messy lives. The key statutory purpose in the Bill is "the efficient and effective provision of public services".

Why can't we boot out the government & replace them with one that is capable of "efficient and effective provision of public services"?

There's a lot they could do to improve that without bringing in some magic plastic, like reducing bureaucracy, dabbling & general micromanagement & instead let the folks at the front line of public services just get on with the job.

But on a war note, a slightly paranoid theory would suggest that it'd make it a lot easier to re-introduce the draft/conscription. Few clicks and there'd be a nice list of unemployed 18-30 year olds cross referenced with medical & educational history. Also parallels some developments in the US where draft boards are increasing staffing levels & schools are meant to tell the DoD about their pupils.

Thanks to our fearless leaders foreign policy ambitions, we're running a little low on troops right now. Expect to see a choice of ASBO, Community Service or Enlistment in courts real soon.

Guy Herbert, you seem to be very well-informed regarding the possiblility of any ID card agenda other than what the government has openly stated.

Your catagoric "No." to "guest's" question is interesting. Your response suggests you KNOW this to be fact - presumably because "They are seen as an universal bureaucratic tool for monitoring and controlling an unruly public". "They are seen" suggests conjecture or do you KNOW this to be fact too.

If, as you say, "They are seen as an universal bureaucratic tool..." perhaps the more generic question

"Are ID Cards prepping the UK for a CRISIS of SOME KIND?"

bears consideration.

We suspect this will be deemed un-related to ID cards and the topic locked.

I think the point Guy is making is that every government we've ever had has raised the possibility that they could introduce ID cards, and every time for different reasons and long before our current and unfortunate climate - back in the day when we were funding Arabs to blow up Russians the civil servants were still slipping suggestions for a National Database into minsters' boxes, as a quick glance at Yes Minister will atest.

If you're hungry for conspiracy theory, just consider that bureaucracy need have no agenda other than to serve itself. The civil service want a national database because it will lead to a bigger civil service - bigger budgets, greater headcounts, power not to carry out the dirty work of whichever cabal is the current vogue, but power for its own sake.

I do deem myself well-informed.

And that leads me to the conclusion that the world is not filled with political masterminds with grand, overarching political schemes, to deal with "crises" that they are better attuned to pick out than the rest of us. Governments are highly reliant on advisors and advisors are constantly struggling for advantage in situations envisioned through the prism of their own interest.

The same proposition (with technological updating from time to time) was put forward in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s... with varying pretexts, but fairly consistent motive. Until the last round religious fanatics have never had a mention, just whatever was top of the public agenda at the time. Odd that. No doubt "the environment" and China will get their turn.

As a hypothesis, the idea that this is essentially scheme for bureaucrats, by bureaucrats, has the merit of being supported by a good deal of documentation, a plausible set of mechanisms in organisational behaviour and public choice theory, and no need to posulate visionary political preparation for one specific future scenario.

There's a neat summary of the latest moves along the bureaucratic tramlines here:
http://www.out-law.com/page-5574

Preparing the UK for war?



I agree that the UK ID cards scheme plays no part in any preparation for war. But the issues of National Security and crime fighting are Nr 1 and Nr 2 ((4) (a) and (b)) in the list of public interest reasons cited in the bill.

Conversely, one of the most often quoted reasons to oppose the bill is the fact that an ID cards scheme would not be effective in fighting crime and in the light of recent events more importantly, terrorism. I broadly agree with that.

That then begs the question: what should we do to stop terrorism claiming innocent lives and making a highly unpleasant imprint on our entire way of live, including the civil liberties we hold so dear?

Turning this country into “fortress UK” is likely to be neither very effective nor without serious consequences for our way of life.

Alternatively, not addressing the root causes of fundamentalist Islamic terrorism isn’t only likely to increase the numbers of home grown or foreign “freedom fighters”, it also raises the spectre of two worlds pitted against each other in a global conflict of epic dimensions: Christianity v. Islam (the sequel). As always, innocent bystanders will be the main casualties, including both devout and non practicing Muslims, practicing and non practicing Christians and complete agnostics on either side.

Not addressing these longer term issues is effectively tantamount to preparing the country for war.

I believe the case for medium-long term measures, in particular the West’s position on many Middle Eastern questions, is a good counter argument against the Government’s “ID cards will be good against terrorism” mantra.

I summarised the <a href="http://www.no2id.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1833">case for addressing the root causes of fundamentalist Islamic terrorism in a post (post subject=No short term solutions)</a> which is now largely out of view.

The political position doesn't tell us anything about the value of ID cards.

More to the point, however, the widespread use of ID (and arbitrary government controls over just about everything) in the Middle East give us a pretty good counter-example to the idea that "ID cards will be good against terrorism". If anything there's an inverse relationship between the scope of a personal sphere independent of the state and the prevalence of terrorism.

You seem to be implying there’s a direct relationship between ID cards in the Middle East and the prevalence of terrorism emanating from these countries.

That’s even more warped than the Government's official stance: “this terrorism has nothing to do with Iraq”.

Please explain. I think I can hear the words “state sponsored terrorism” march towards this post with ill-deserved confidence.

And if we're all willing to bury our heads in the sand as regards the deeper causes of fundamentalist Islamic terrorism, then let's prepare for a protracted "war" with a faceless and virtually invisible enemy that can strike anywhere, anytime. It will make the IRA look like a bunch of pussycats. Nor can there be any negotiations: there may be "clear and present danger" but there is no "clear and identifiable enemy" with whom we might be able to negotiate a cease fire.

The war they're preparing for is the war on civil liberties and the war on commonsense. Seeing Blair et al have a very feeble understanding of commonsense, they'll lose that one by themselves.

It's up to people like us to ensure they lose the war on civil liberties.

From the wikipedia entry:

ID cards during the World Wars

"Compulsory identity cards were first issued in the United Kingdom during World War I, and abandoned in 1919. Cards were re-introduced during World War II under the National Registration Act 1939, but were abandoned seven years after the end of that war in 1952, amid widespread public resentment. Opposition reached its peak with the 1951 court case of Willcock v Muckle, after Clarence Henry Willcock refused to produce his identity card. The judge in the case said that the cards were an "annoyance" and "tended to turn law-abiding subjects into law breakers".

Wartime cards were a temporary measure to combat an obvious threat and did not collect information on people through a central database. The cards were of the uncontroversial form still used in many countries, such as Germany, Italy and France."

I don't think anyone is arguing that stability in the Middle East is vital and that any nuclear threat to Israel must be nipped in the bud but I can't see how ID cards back home will help.

Stability can't be forced on anyone for long by oppressive means - surely the way forward is to improve things in the region by using other means?

I’m glad to hear about your new found enthusiasm for the free <a href="http://www.no2id.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1950">Wikipedia encyclopaedia</a>, it might actually improve your reading skills.

Israel is the only nation in the entire region with undeclared nuclear weapons, no one can threaten Israel militarily, thanks to massive US aid and Western complicity to a situation which is deplored by so many, including more reasonable Israelis like Simon Peres, the former Prime Minister.

As regards ID cards, I hope they don't but when they do come, stick one where the sun doesn’t shine, it's gonna hurt a little but it's for a good cause. It’s on me anyway.

NoMoreJokes? Indeed: no more jokes like you, palease!. Now run along. Don't forget your encyclopaedia! Who needs trolls with posters like this...

Sorry if I have offended you, or anyone else. I know the situation in the Middle East is very sensitive and if I came across as a pro-this or an anti-that I apologise.

I worry that Israel might be a target of one of many countries in the region. My understanding is that the country is hated in the region, much like our allies the US.

I'm pro-peace and just want the world to be a better place.

So, it’s your understanding that Israel is hated in the region? Well done. Ever stopped to wonder why? Look it up in wiki.



You’re pro-peace and still consider the US our allies? It’s thanks to the gang of four in Washington some 25,000 – 120,000 civilians were left dead in Iraq and now we’re in the firing line of fundamentalist Islamic terror too.

You also conveniently forget Al Qaida was originally an American bank rolled group. Osama Bin Laden received <a href="http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/CIA_Created_Osama.htm">some 6 billion USD</a> to throw the Soviets out of Afghanistan. Conspiracy theory? NoMoreJokes: people like Richard Pearl, Senator Orrin Hatch, Zbigniew Brzezinski and many other neocons don’t deny it happened, they openly boast about it too!

The US (and most of the West) also supported Saddam Hussein with funding, arms and military know-how, as long as his regime proved a useful barrier against the fundamentalist Islamists that had taken over Iran (led by Ayatollah Khomeini), from the previous US puppet regime led by the Shah of Iran.

In the mean time our own gang of four continues to maintain there’s <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4716505.stm">no link between the UK’s disastrous involvement in Iraq and the London “events”.</a> Watch the video!

What’s all this got to do with ID cards? As a terrorism counter measure, a sensible and fair approach to the Middle East by both the UK <a href="http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/comment/0,12956,1036687,00.html">and it’s “allies” the US</a> would be far more effective than ID cards. It would also be more honest. And cheaper. And the right thing to do.

What's the postcode of that planet you live on?

1LU VU2

I do think that. It would be mad to believe ID cards cause terrorism. But that's not what I said. I think that absolutist governments that rule by terror cause both terrorism and ID cards. Why's that warped?

I was pointing out that ID cards do not prevent terrorism and that the Middle Eastern countries illustrate that. And separately making the more general observation.

I’m assuming guest and gesh are the same person but can’t be sure. If you registered as “gesh” we wouldn’t be having this confusion.

As to “I do think that”, which of the quoted statements precisely are you referring to?

The question is why is this UK government pushing id cards, when they have shown not to popular or viable at any time during the past six decades. After considering all the possibilities, and there are many, there are several conclusions that I can come to.

ID cards and the surveillence society is by no means unique to UK, it is a world-wide phenomonen. Driven, most certainly, by the "one world" agenda. However, the proposed UK system is unique in the fact that it is extremely ambitious and seeks to keep tabs on the entire population of UK with the NIR. A question that plagued me was "why is UK being picked on as it has such a large population base, so why not a smaller country such as NZ with only four million people"? The answer to this is obvious really. Someone said to me in a letter about two years ago: "Classism and obsequiousness are deeply ingrained in the British psyche" And this sure seems to be true. I am not trying to insult anyone here, but from reading forums such as these and even "opinion pieces" about "what do you think of id cards?" I can easily imagine hoards of UK people queueing up to surrender their most intimate details to the state telling themselves "it is my place to do so, and I have to do what my betters tell me, and we are all doing this for queen and country". Most of the UK people I've met haven't exactly been into "questioning authority". So, a system like this probably has the best chance of working in UK as anywhere. UK people seem unwilling even to accept that the queen is nothing any more than a picture on the cover of the "womens' weekly" and the royal family merely UK's major tourist attraction, and the so-called "royal prerogative" is actually a "parliamentary prerogative".

As to the point, the reason. Well maybe Tony Blair is a meglomaniac and wants to declare himself a deity. By doing all this, and there is no doubt that he is behind it, he is saying: I am devine now, I have the power to give you an identity, and of course, take it away again if I want to".

During the "poll tax" debacle there were jokes that Margaret Thatcher wanted to be royal or aristocratic, well Tony Blair wants to be God.

I don't think Brits are born head bowed, cringing, cap in hand... maybe it's a chemical in the water.

What makes me laugh about myself is the instant authority I will give someone with a posh, plummy voice. Sometime I have to mentally change their voice as they are speaking to critically hear what they are actually saying - which is very often low IQ junk.

I put this down to the BBC who always used Southern English voices to present important information.

A certain NATO HQ somewhere in the Lowlands used to have sign outside a mess welcoming the various member's forces & at the bottom said "Do not drink, gamble or fight with the British, for you will lose"

We can be remarkably compliant up to a point, but after that, have a long tradition of being extremely stubborn & invading warmer places.

This is ABSOLUTELY the key question. Those who take up a fight without understanding WHY are simply the cannon-fodder for someone else's agenda.

This is what disturbs us most about the No2ID campaign "owners" (yes - Who DOES own this campaign?) - there appears to be a clear theme on this forum to DIVERT discussion away from any understanding of WHY the government is foisting ID cards onto a population who have expressed antipathy to the idea.

We believe it is no coincidence at all that US client states elsewhere are doing the ID card thing. The US administration is pushing this idea too.

Unless we (Brits) get our parochial heads out of the sand and recognise this is a GLOBAL problem/challenge and understand the motivations, pressures and strategies of our "adversaries" then we stand "Buckley's chance and None" of stopping the database state - here or elsewhere.

If you look back on this forum, there are many threads devoted to why. They have done a far better job to justify their theories than anything you have so far posted IMHO.

Nobody owns the campaign - is this paranoia or deliberate attempts to undermine the best chance we have of stopping the surveillance state?

One thing for sure, go back around 6 weeks and there was no-one trolling these fora nor anyone feeling the need to question "ownership" as if there can be such a thing.

A campaign is merely a set of campaigners. Does anybody own you? Has anybody connected with No2ID asked you to do anything vaguely inappropriate? Have you even tried to contact anyone from the central team?

"We" have discussed clear guidelines as to the burden of proof. "We" have discussed why this is important. Do you join that discussion? No! You just continue to bleat on about having our heads in the sand.

Despite the fact that this harms the campaign, nobody has censored you. In fact, you have been encouraged you to post your opinions! Only back them up with real evidence so that when journalists read these fora they won't think we're a bunch of paranoid freaks.

Technically speaking, NO2ID is an unincorporated association, a club owned by its members. If you pay a membership subscription you are joint owner, and jointly liable for anything that goes wrong. (If, for example, someone decides to sue for libel posted by one of the freeriders in this forum.) There are arguments for a more formal structure, and we intend to move to a limited liability model, which will allow commercial organisations, unions, and charities to give us more direct support.

As in most clubs the work is done by a minority and they run it and take the decisions largely by being willing to work at it and being tolerated by their fellows as minimally competent. Unlike most clubs, we have chosen to grow fast by allowing people to take part in club activities without a formal relationship--simply by joining our mailing list. We talk about "members", who have paid a subscription; "donors", who give us money, but don't wish to join; and "supporters", the 20,000 or so people who are now along for the ride, but need not contribute anything.

Some supporters work very hard for the campaign, some just receive the newsletter. Either is fine. Some noble people have not joined but donated tens of thousands in kind. We hope that sooner or later every supporter will give some sort of help, and if they do, however small the individual contribution, we will make real progress.

But just bloviating in the forum is not in general helpful. Ideas or information (real information not unsubstantated rumour) posted here are hugely useful; so are coherent contributions to relevant debate, and constructive criticisms. If you are here just to whinge and post things that embarrass the campaign, or if you take up lots of moderation time that could be better used on internal or external communications, then you really aren't helping the fight.

If you have posted much to this forum without getting round to writing to your local newspaper, say, then you may be one of the problems the campaign faces rather than part of the solution.

Hmm "....maybe it's a chemical in the water". I read that UK, Ireland and Spain are the only countries in Europe to have fluoride in the water supply, and "there are plans to poison Scotland as well".

Maybe this would do it?

There are sites that suggest fluoride makes people stupid, docile, and subservient and was used in world war 2 by the bad guys in concentration camp water supplies.

Fluoride free toothpaste anyone?