NO2ID

We are disturbed at a stronger-than-hint of censorship in the No2ID campaign and these forum pages.

You may or may not be aware that JK5 (and the individuals involved before JK5 was formed) has been a vociferous critic of ID cards and other freedom encroachments internationally for some years - for some considerable time before No2ID was invented.

We have researched many global issues and are left with no doubt whatever that ID cards (where ever they are being mooted) are only a SMALL part of a far larger, far more frightening agenda. Addressing the ID card issue is like treating a dying cancer patient for bed-sores - it's necessary, everyone (nurses and patient) feels better and it really does some good - BUT it does not prevent the eventual outcome. Only radical surgery, chemo or nuclear medicine have (at present) a chance of doing that - sometimes all three.

Addressing the ID card issue in isolation is making the patient more comfortable but giving in to the cancer - the final submission!

Perhaps it is a measure of our paranoid perspective on government (yes - we ARE pleased and comfortable with this particular paranoia) that makes us suspicious of forces within an entity such as No2ID who would censor and limit discussion. We recognise that most people may only be able to focus on a single issue. We detect, however, that most of the people on this forum can actually handle a greater intellectual load.

Attempts to divert, subvert or censor discussion will most likely be met with disaffection and abandonment and the eventual demise of the whole No2ID campaign. People usually do things for a reason. So; if there are forces which have infiltrated No2ID with the intention of dismantling the campaign we can flush them out by observing their attempts to censor debate.

Such forces should be summarily excommunicated from No2ID.

Just in case anyone is interested, I've just had a quick look at the home page of http://www.jk5.net

From that, a summary of that website's campaign is:



This strikes me as clear, and well within the bounds of freedom of opinion.

That website may well be of interest to, and a better home for, some of the opinions recently expressed on these NO2ID fora. That is those opinions that are wider in scope than just being against the proposed UK national identity scheme (and perhaps such schemes in general).

Accordingly, I favour leaving the above post on NO2ID as a pointer to that site. [Note. I think that is what will happen anyway, from what I have seen of the moderation applied so far to NO2ID fora.]

However, I don't see that the existance of a wider political view, that includes being against national identity schemes, gives its proponents the right to divert NO2ID from its own more limited political intent to their wider political intent.

Accordingly, I am very much against JK5's call for NO2ID moderators to leave alone postings that are substantially off topic.

Best regards

I actually agree with JK5 completely. Ive been reading this site for a few weeks now and have to say I have learnt quite alot and I thank you for that. However I do not believe that the ID issue is isolated from other factors. Other people I have spoken to do not think that either. I am not a conspiracy nut, I dont wear a tin foil hat and I am quite capable of making my own mind up about the information I read.
Any possibility of a compromise and maybe a new section where the people who see the bigger picture can discuss the wider issues that surround ID and NO2ID could put a disclaimer at the top stating that they are not the views of NO2ID?

Your point about the bigger picture is a good one and I think the ID cards are part of the bigger picture so I think its important. Im not a conspiracy nut iether but I dont know what conspiracy is. I red jk5's website about conspiracy and that makes sence.

It seems highly unlikely to me that conspiracy theorists would choose to limit their posts to such a section. Why do they come on this forum at all? To spread their message to a wider audience that they think might be sympathetic? To hijack the campaign? Because they prefer to post on a forum with credibility than a forum to which nobody is listening? Whatever the reason, conspiracy theories do nothing to help defeat this bill. Making the population see some truth that only conspiracy theorists are currently aware of is not a viable option for stopping this legislation.

Can you not see that your "bigger picture" is utterly irrelevant to the campaign objectives. NO2ID is focussed on stopping this one imminent piece of legislation. If you want to solve all the problems of the world, this forum is not the place to do it.

Nigel Sedgwick has the correct.

I do not believe that No2ID's cause is helped by some of the more outlandish theories, so removing such off-topic posts is entirely sensible, IMHO. Besides, it's No2ID's website, they can do what they please with it.

It would perhaps help their cause if the conspiracy theorists didn't repeatedly spam multiple topics with the same posts and links. I am also quite capable of making up my own mind about such things, but I dislike having to trawl through so much noise.

Your posting comes from the same Australian IP address as all 15 of JK5's posts (220.235.169.139 = dsl-220-235-169-139.wa.westnet.com.au). Since I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I'm sure this is simply a coincidence.

A typical conspiracy denialist's naive assumption !

I sympathise with JK5 in many respects. I have direct personal experience of one well-known "conspiracy" (not second-hand anecdotal stuff from web sites) so I know there to be substance to it.

But IMHO this forum is not the place for me to post on that subject. I understand the analogy of cancer vs bed-sores, but in truth we are far more likely to be successful in this campaign if we stay focused on ID/NIR issues rather than broadening the argument to include "global control by multi-nationals" or similar themes. Surely bed-sores need treatment too?

Other people may think differently, in which case they will post topics or replies on wider subjects (and indeed they do!). But the major danger I see is that it offers the opportunity for the Government and media to ridicule us on the basis that rubbishing the messenger effectively rubbishes the message. We need wide support to kill the Bill and that means carrying with us as many of the Great British Public as we can.

Sorry guys, but most people in this country do not believe that we are all being individually tracked by satellites - that Diana was murdered by MI5 on the order of Prince Philip - that the Pentagon was hit on 11 September by a missile, not a 747 - that the plane over Lockerbie was shot down in flight - etc, etc. If we allow ourselves to be diverted too much into these wider questions, we simply invite ridicule, no matter how much we as individuals may believe our position to be justified.

As I said on another thread, the moderators do a pretty good job on the whole of balancing freedom of expression against keeping us all on topic. Railing against them for deleting a post which you think should have stayed isn't exactly productive - send a personal message explaining why you think they were wrong by all means, but don't clutter up these boards please!

Beware of this disturbing new conspiracy theory doing the rounds.

It goes;
"That the government is planning to number us all, and force us to carry this number wherever we go, to allow us to do whatever we have to do, that this number will carry intimate details of our personal selves such as medical records, DNA, fingerprints, iris scans, notes from any official who has had contact with you, pshycological evaluation, voting history, etc. They will call it the National ID scheme"

Personaly I think these conspiracy theorists are all nuts, who would ever beleive such a thing could be foisted on the British people.

Heres another lunatic conspiracy theory;

"That the goverment wants to put tags on everyones cars, then track them everywhere by satelite, fining them if they speed, and pricing the roads they drive. Car drivers would have to pay for the privaledge, or face huge fines etc"

Who would beleive such drivel ???

As if!

gaba wrote on Thu, 21 Jul 2005 13:22:07 +0000:



Well spotted gaba. This is an excellent example of the exageration variant of a conspiracy theory - one of the more subtle and dangerous kind. Here 5 or the 7 quoted "intimate details" are spurious.

It's shocking, and risks giving the NO2ID campaign a bad name. We had better warn the moderators to watch out for it.

Best regards

Moderation note: This thread is now locked. Anyone wishing to discuss non-ID-card-related topics may want to follow Nigel's pointer to the discussion forum on JK5's site.