NO2ID

Conspiracy theories.

If the world wernt run by Bush and such mad men, with agendas such as PNAC, controlling governments such as our own, invading countries out of their control................

We probably wouldnt have such a big problem whith all those damb conspiracy theorists.

Some of those theories are nuts, they are userly made up by those who wish to "poison the well" by making anyone who stands out a "crazy conspiracy theorist."

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Hi Guy - thanks for your moderating efforts over the past week or so !

:O)

It's a mark of No2ID's success that efforts are obviously now being made to disrupt the even flow of communication. Trolling, abuse, off-topic posts, being argumentative : - all of these seem to me to be being used deliberately, and with some skill.

Whether people like it or not, there are however connections between 911 and ID cards, the more so once one has studied both. This is not to suggest this forum become a site promoting 911 information - but there is a sensible place to draw the line. For example, nobody has yet proposed limiting discussion regarding the Reichstag fire, its raison d'etre. and its consequences.

I'd be quite happy with registration for all posters - but it will not stop the site being targeted. But, as I said above, that is a good sign overall

regards,
John

I have no objection to people pointing out the obvious opportunism that followed in the wake of 9/11. It took but a matter of days for Blunkett to start touting the idea of ID cards. Sick opportunism, yes. Conspiracy... I don't think so. A decent conspiracy requires a degree of competence I've yet to see in our political elite.

The politicians are the errand boys, not the elite.

I was being generous...

I agree with you but I was just raising the obvious counter arguement in the spirit of conversation.

It's telling how things have come to the stage where 9/11 has become such an issue. I can definitely see the point in keeping this site dedicated to only ID card opposition issues. The only flaw is that if things are really as corrupt as 9/11 facts suggest then no campaign no matter how well planned will ever stop the ID cards being forced onto us. I suggest this is the acid test of who's right. If their is a shred of democracy and decency still existing in our system, then this no2id campaign and other anti ID initiatives may stop this ID plan coming into force. If the ID card plan is a key plank in the creation of the global fascist state often refered to as part of the agenda behind 9/11, then there is no way that any campaign will stop it, and it will be forced into law regardless of public opinion, relentless campaigning or the love of Jesus!
and where will that leave us?

For what it's worth, though i will continue to actively support the No2ID campaign, I unhappily predict that it (the ID Plan) will become law and it will be up to the people to defeat it through non compliance (poll tax revisited)
I sincerely wish to be proven wrong.

i have been instrumental in building up a UK network of 911 campaigners. Now I have no interest in presenting the evidence or convincing anyone. Those with an interest will find the 911 evidence if they want to and so I have some symapthy with the moderators position to limit discussion to 'on topic issues' only.

However this distinction between on and off subject issues may well prove to be less clear as time goes by. For example, ID cards and the database state is linked to the following issues: terrorism, RFIDs, echelon. It doesn't take a conspiracy theorist to see the dangers in the introduction of RFIDs and their potential use as a means of tracking people to see that this technology could be misused by both state and non-state actors.

Now the campaign can focus on 'sensible' arguents (like cost and effectiveness) but the arguments of privacy and civil liberties require a degree of 'paranoia' to make them hit home. In order to counter the pro-ID card arguments of 'If you haven't done anything wrong you have nothing to fear' of ID cards, the campaign needs to show that we do indeed have something to fear from the state holding all our personal data on a database and however you couch this, this moves into conspiracy theory territory.

So in short those thinking that by banning 9/11 discussion will get rid of 'conspiracy theorists' are mistaken. Those that will want to ban everything they consider to be a conspiracy theorist will find they exclude much relevent discussion and will end up severely censoring debate

My tuppenneth worth

To me, the line is very clear.

Either you're talking primarily about ID Cards and the Register, both of which are undeniable threats.

Or you're talking primarily about 9/11 and other conspiracies, all of which are only loosely related to ID Cards and easily ridiculable.

When (and if) we defeat the ID Cards scheme, then we will turn to what else needs sorting out.

To the conspiracy theorists

The people who claim 911 was an inside job will naturally want to evangelise, but this is not the place... afterall people here are against ID cards anyway.

To the anti-conspiracy theorists

The people who are against ID cards AND conspiracy theorists - you won't harm yourself by researching cognitive dissonance and looking at some of the free videos knocking about on the net.

Adam is reading, and has been thinking about this since before this forum was deployed...


There are a few other mods now.

my tuppence worth on conspiracies — well, erm, they do sort of come with the assumption of governments being organized...

I am the guest who posted before you Dave. I understand what you are saying. But I'm not sure for understand me

I agree with (or atleast understand) the decision to ban certain topics which are considered irrelevent. So therefore banning 9/11 truth is fine by me, if this is considered irrelevent by moderators then ban it. But ban it because it is irrelevent and not because it is a 'conspiracy theory'. Other wise the obvious question is asked, who decides what is a conspiracy theory and what isn't, what is legitimate information and what is illegitimate

My point was that there are some issues related to ID cards (and so are relevent) which some people will consider to be 'conspiracy theories'. In my opinion these topics should not be banned provided the information is accurate and not 'offensive'. As an example I offered RFIDs. If one of the reasons tha campaign opposes ID cards is that they are an invasion of privacy/promoter of the surveillance society/state (as you acknowledge here http://www.spy.org.uk/wtwu.htm and here http://www.privacyinternational.org/) then discussion of RFIDs is surely permissible. But any one familiar with RFIDs and their debate will know this can by some people be seen to be talking of 'conspiracy theories'.

Here are few links to illustrate my point.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&ie=IS ... vacy&meta=
http://news.com.com/2010-1069-980325.html
http://www.internetnews.com/index.php/17491

So Iask that moderators are clear on the reason to ban certain topics or 'fruitcake' posters.

Legitimate reasons in my mind would include irrelevent, inaccurate or offensive material, but not just because it is a 'conspiracy theory' in some one's judgement

Thanks

Ian N

Speaking for myself, we also need to ban certain conspiracy theories because they open us for ridicule by New Labour.

We are a massive thorn in their side at the moment. We have turned what was a non-event in the last Parliament into their biggest ever political problem.
Sooner or later they will come after us like they did Simon Davies.

RFID, in relation to both ID Cards & e-passports, is very much on topic.

They are an undeniable threat as they will probably be included on ID Cards and almost certainly in e-passports - as they are part of the ICAO standard.

Terrorism, in regards to what help ID Cards can & cannot provide, is very much on topic - especially at the moment.

Echelon - this is more borderline. I am pretty sure it exists & that the Register will be connected to it, but there is not a great deal we can do about it. We've also had the "Don't ask me how I know" brigade spouting all kinds of nonsense about it. For the sake of the campaign, make sure all references to it are backed by legitimate sources.

At some point I think we should be aiming for a "Big Conversation" in the public and Parliament about what is & isn't dangerous in the world of mass surveillance - and that too is on topic.

However, we were on course to defeat the ID Cards Bill which would be our first major victory and probably kill the Register for the next 10+ years.

But now, we might lose on the basis of a single invalid argument. We need to refocus, to keep repeating to MPs Blair's & Clarke's message that ID Cards would not have made any difference to this attack, or any in future. Otherwise we have to hope & pray the Lords will keep blocking it regardless of amendments - and that Blair won't use the Parliament Act.

After all our hard work, are we going to let them win, just because we're afraid of putting out the right messages?

If these irrelevant and daft conspiracy theories are allowed to remain what will happen is that the pro-NIR companies and 'New' Labour can use it to utterly poke fun at and ridicule NO2ID and all our hard work. They can then paint us as a bunch of Internet tin-foil hat nutters and paranoid morons. That way, we can be safely ignored while the Government get their way. We can't afford to let that happen.

All I'm saying is moderation is needed on public discussion boards.

But in banning certain content and posters be clear on the reasons why, such as material is

a) irrelevent
b) inaccurate or from unverifiable sources
c) offensive

What IMO you should not do is ban material because it is "daft conspiracy theories", because after all who decides what is or is not "daft conspiracy theories".

My other suggestion is posting v prominently a "no endorsement" statement along the lines

No2ID does not endorse the statements and links contained on this forum

Such a policy would IMO knock this whole 'conspiracy theory' problem on its head?

That's 3 lot's of tuppenneth from me which is more than enough

Seems reasonable to me. I'm pretty sure we've not banned anyone.

You are dead wrong about the mass public being sceptical of 9/11 factual evidence. Please don't underestimate them. They saw through the false government claims of a WMD threat from Iraq despite those who initially tried to expose the lie being labelled conspiracy nuts, extremists and unpatriotic. People make the mistake of thinking everyone sees the world exactly as they do, but in fact the opposite is true and everyone has their own individual perspective. So many people are now (understandably) in such deep distrust of their government, that they are prepared to consider many explanations for recent political events. I doubt New labour will ever use 9/11 controversial allegations to try and discredit no2id or any other ID opposing group. The last thing they (New Labour) want is for ideas contra to the 9/11 official story to penetrate the consciousness of the mass public, as it will only encourage a deeper suspicion of authority and resistance to it. Which would make it harder to gain acceptance of their ID plan. Remember only 22% of the electorate support Labour, the rest (78%) do not. If it comes to it, peoples already widespread suspicion of government motives will win the day on what to believe.

Hi acelin

I hope you are right that people in the wake of the wmd lies and the downing street dossier will be willing to reconsider the 9/11 evidence. If you PM I'll give you details of the network of British 911 campaigners and how if you like you can become involved.

However we should respect the moderators (and others) wish not to see irrelevent topics discussed here. My point is that in banning some topics such as 9/11 it is because it is considered irrelevent (or inaccurate or offensive) and not because it is decided to be a 'conspiracy theory' since one person's conspiracy theory is another person's truth

Moderation Note: Off-topic post, subsequent moderation request, and yet another off-topic post deleted.

You are such an incredible sucker to the system mindset that it beggars belief. That’s exactly what they want you to do because they will win. You don't win a war by following the requirements of your enemy and the mass media is part of the system we are fighting. They can say what they like but you know what is actually happening, people are switching it off and using forums, independent news sites and people that they know to find out what is going on.

Live in your sheep like world but it isn't my world, I know what they have planned and you might as well join the BBC if you think like that. Your world is not safe and keeping your head in the sand will eventually be your downfall, times like this is no time to compromise on what you stand for.

The London bombings were an inside job to get ID cards implimented. Now wake up and smell the tea!

Guest but one is right the only way you can beat these arseholes is get in their faces threaten legal action, civil disobediance and basically just not playing ball . You want me to pay you , no f*cking way . Simply being in the right is simply not enough. Know if you look like you can hit them back harder than they can hit you then they leave you alone just like any other bully. Man I have been on campaigns to save schools and old peoples home and to stop the privatisation of council houses in Merseyside and the D.N.A testing of children in Bootle.
I can tell you from being involved that the campaigns who stuck to the rules of normal councillor or M.P friendly protest loose , There are a load of Illegally closed schools in Sefton because the protesters went through the old routine of petitions to Downing street etc.

Well thanks for the support; I thought I might be having a bit of a hard time trying to state the obvious in this Orwellian place we now live in. Yes, you know because you have been there and done it and I think real experience is so valuable to making this campaign a success.

However I get the whiff the NO2ID people have been compromised, they seem scared for some reason. I first thought it may be something to do with the 'if you tow the line we may consider giving you BBC publicity' or something on the system bribery front but I’m not so sure. Something is not right and we have a whole system to take on. I mean council house and schools are like small fry compared to this one, this will effectively imprison the entire population in an electronic fashion. It is paramount to the systems plans so I think NO2ID need real balls. Something tells me that they fall short of it. All the deleted posts saying it is 'not relevant' it does not look right one bit.

No, not scared, not compromised, not bribed. It's much simpler than that - we're in this to win. Getting embroiled in bizarre conspiracy theories is at best a distraction. At worst it will fatally hurt us.

I (and others) have been working b****y hard on this campaign since May 2004, when it was originally set up. I've spent dozens of hours standing on street stalls collecting supporters' names and email addresses - effort which recently paid off when we turned thousands of those supporters into signatories of the NO2ID "I will refuse an ID card" pledge, getting it to 10,000 refuseniks in just one month. I've spent dozens more hours distributing leaflets advertising local meetings, raising awareness even before the first bill was introduced to Parliament. I've lobbied MPs and councillors. I've spent hundreds of pounds of my own money on printing literature with little hope of repayment. I've talked to hundreds of real people about ID cards, on the streets. I know that to succeed we need to have the support of all these ordinary people. If we allow ourselves to veer off into unfounded paranoid speculation that government agents in black helicopters colluded to kill hundreds of people in London and New York then the pro-ID-card politicians will find it easy to dismiss us all as delusional cranks. If that happens, we'll fail.

We're using the tactics developed in Australia when they beat ID cards in the late 1980s. We're going to win this one the same way. Getting embroiled in bizarre conspiracy theories wasn't part of that successful campaign, and it won't be part of this one.

If you really want to help, go and walk down your street collecting NO2ID pledge signatures. If we can't win in parliament, our backup plan is to build the foundations of a civil disobedience campaign that will make the Poll Tax fiasco look like a vicarage tea party. So instead of speculating about 9/11, which in the long run helps no-one, why not do something useful like collecting a few dozen more pledge supporters?

Here endeth the sermon ....

Mocking the facts is the scurillous tactic of those who seek to influence the ignorant. It works because most ARE ignorant and too bone idle to bother to read the research done by reputable scholars. Mockers are eager to encourage the weak and ignorant to remain content to blindly believe anything governments tell them.

Using the word "conspiracy" works too. It is one of those non-words which has been deliberately vilified to hide scandal, lies and fraud. Well, let us say that the remarkable efforts of people like Edward G Griffin (Jekyll Island) PROVES at least one great conspiracy. The work of Briton Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed (War on Freedom) presents, in a thoroughly professional and dispassionate way the enormous body of evidence surrounding the 2001 WTC attacks.

Today, in a world where the information IS available, conspiracy denialists show themselves up to be either supporters of a conspiracy agenda or simply ignorant.

Paleeeeze. No2ID in the UK today is NOTHING at ALL like the campaign we had in Oz. We were all THERE. The public attitude is TOTALLY different. The tactics we used then were MASSIVE street demos. There was no civil disobedience - it never GOT that far.

Oz in 86/87 was TOTALLY different because of the fundamentaly different attitude of Australians to authority compared to Brits. The ONLY way you will mobilise Brits to behave like the Aussies did in 86/87 is to WIDEN the issue to where the REAL danger lurks - Totalitarian Authority - Bliar style.