NO2ID

Does make me laugh the anti ID Card lobby

If you have nothing to hide then what is the problem.

1. Easily the most intrusive mass-invasion of privacy of all time in any country, whilst hiring lawyers with our money so they can ignore the Freedom of Information Act and suppress their own reports on the scheme.

2. Ongoing deception of the database-illiterate public in respect of this, the cost of ID cards, the implications of being dependent on the Govt for access to the NHS, work, international travel etc

3. Continued repetition of discredited reasons for introducing the scheme - as we've seen before re: Iraq

4. Serious danger imposed on vulnerable people of forcibly disclosing their location eg battered wives, abused children etc

5. Subjecting passport applicants next month to a lifetime of mass-surveillance without their permission or knowledge

There's quite a few more but those are the ones that spring to mind at 4am...

Who decides whether you have something to hide? Not you.

If whoever has power decides they don't like something about you, and you can't hide, what then?

Personally I'd go for a mix of rather muddled thoughts they might be thinking:

a) Isn't it silly that we, the government, don't have an address book for the nation?

b) We know there are bad people out there. If we give all the good people ID Cards, and make it impossible for anyone to live their lives without producing them several times a day, then we'll catch all the bad people.

c) There's all this great new technology that will modernise and streamline everything, and we haven't got it.

d) If somebody's getting up our nose, it would be really useful to find out more about them.

e) My very good friends the IT contractors, who used to employ me / might employ me after I leave government, have convinced me it's a good idea.

This is the very point the 'Nothing to hide' brigade just don't get!

They are so certain of their own probity and purity and rightful place in mainstream, conventional, normal, 9-5, semi-detatched, missionary-position society that they simply can't see their vulnerability to having their life overseen and regulated by a computer that shares all of their values and none of their values.

It is their sheer blinkered hatred, though, of all people who somehow don't share their limited view of normality that blinds them to the awful truth - that even their fantastic purity and perfection may be insufficient to satisfy a government computer system.

They also do not seem to consider the many risks of the computer system malfunctioning or that there may be design errors in the database or mistakes made by those who administer it. They simplistically see the computer database as on the same 'side' as themselves - and consequently incapable of wrong.

When the NIR goes live, what a shock some of these people of limited imagination are going to suffer! Who do they think they are going to bleat to when computer says 'no'? And when the people who they used to consider friends, instead of giving them their support at a difficult time turn round and chant together 'Nothing to hide, nothing to fear' in a cackling sinister chorus veering towards insanity?

The 'Nothing to hide' brigade are the very members of what is left of our society who will assist the government in imposing the NIR on us. However, once in place there is nothing to suggest the government will find it necessary to reward them for their help.

If, by some chance, you happen to be one of these people you owe it to yourself to carefully consider your own real interests and those of whom you love. You may feel you are special now, but when you are on the database you will be just like anyone else. Equally under suspicion, equally vulnerable to error, equally liable to hacking, equally capable of wishing you had acted to stop this before it was too late. The NIR will prove to you that you are common, whether that is how you like to think of yourself or not. No government official will be able to tell how pure and legal you personally happen to think you are from looking at their screen - even if they wanted to.

It may come as a shock, but taking the side of the people of this country and opposing the intentions of the government - whilst going against your normal view of things - may be what you need to do to genuinely protect your own interests. You probably even know this in your heart of hearts. Now admit it to youself.

That rather depends on the definition of nothing to hide in use doesnt it ?

Might it just be that not everybodies definition is the same as yours.

Having a criminal conviction may be something to hide for 40% of the male population. But then if this info is all out in the open then gradually no shame will be attached to it (think of the easy acceptance of unmarried mothers nowdays) The stigma of conviction is a fair deterrent to would be criminals so its removal may actualy increase crime rates. Another great victory for the NIR.

Justin.

Unkle Monkey, you think you have nothing to hide?

I suspect you probably do, but if you really think you don't, why do you need an ID card?

If you don't have anything to hide, why meekly submit yourself to the expense and inconvenience of having to get your personal details recorded onto a massive database?

If you have 'nothing to hide' what benefits do you think an ID card and your records on a database are going to provide for you?

Maybe you're just playing the 'devil's advocate' to see what sort of reaction you get, but if you really believe that there's no problem, I'll tell you this: I used to be just like you; really believed I had 'nothing to hide'.

But that said, I've never been a person who accepts things on face value, just because they're portrayed as the 'norm', or because of the fear of being perceived as 'out of step', if I don't go along with what I'm told is the view of the 'majority'.

That's what caused me to start examining the Government's arguments for ID cards and the NIR and akin with many others on this site I found them seriously wanting.

If you think that I'm some sort of 'trendy lefty rebel' I'll tell you this: I aint. I'm a white male, middle class, ex police officer, who 'woke up' and made a promise to myself that if I was to retain any degree of self respect I should not allow myself to be blindly led down the path this Government is mapping out for the law abiding citizens of this country

It's wrong, totally wrong. I just can't 'buy into it' and I shall continue to oppose it every step of the way.

I ask you to do the same. Look at it, get the real truth (you'll find plenty of it here) and if you remain convinced that ID cards and the NIR are the right way to go, come back on and make the case for them.

I don't think you can make such a case, but the effort would be more worthy than coming on here and trotting out a tired old cliche which (if it ever had one) really has outlived it's useful life.

Look at it this way. BID (Before ID) and David Blunkett, we had nothing to hide and no one talked about ID cards because we did not need them.

AID (After ID) and after David Blunkett we still don't need ID cards and we still have nothing to hide.

ID cards are the religion of a bunch of crazy zealots who through fear are trying to control the masses (all of the electorate).

So I ask you this - many of the high ranking people in society including the zealots will have opt-outs regarding ID cards and data tracking, so what have these zealots got to hide?

I have never said that I have nothing to hide. There are plenty of things that i don't want other people to know about me. At the moment, I am allowed that as of what I consider to be a basic right - a right called "privacy".

Privacy is a right we don't endow upon, for example, animals. We also don't tend to endow that particular right to the same extent to small children, or to people with extreme mental incapacity. That's because animals, infants and the mentally incapable don't feel that they have anything to hide. To which of those categories do you belong?

Stu

Sums up our current Government perfectly!

Living in a close society which anyone who lives in a town/city does & anyone in a medium sized village of say more than 500people does, You will have something to hide.

Be it your nice shiny new jewellery or your sexual deviances. There are for example an awful lot of people into the ideals of S&M or BDSM, why should these people potentially have to reveal their sexual preferences/ideals to someone in whitehall?? Why does someone in whitehall need that information except to satify their own sick ends? That is just an example and one that may or not become possible with the data set currently been proposed, but when the next census is planning to include questions about how much time you spend with your partner each week & other such questions you can bet it wont be long before the NIR database records if you are straight/gay/bi-sexual and whether you have any deviances/perversions.

Extreme? maybe, but its a very real & potential threat. I put it to you as well mr monkey that everyone has at least one sexual perversion/deviance.

I took exception to the intrusiveness of the last census and filled it out using appalling misspellings and grammar with nonsensical and often conflicting answers as if a confused idiot.

I never heard any more.

As a piece of information its almost useless to anybody beyond that it confirms that those living at my address exist.

Thats the sort of thing that happens when you push something that is fundamentally reasonable beyond being reasonable.

Does make me laugh the Unkle Monkey - Guest who can't see the problem and has nothing to hide. OK Unkle Monkey. Perhaps you would -be kind enough to reply with the following info to this Forum:-
-Your full name, address, contact phone numbers and date of birth
-Same for your partner
-Your nationality, religion and place of birth
-Same for your partner
-Your medical history, including hospitalisation, treatment for any addictions, mental illnesses, phisical disabilities and sexually transmitted diseases
-Your education history, with your qualifications and grades
-Your employment history, including employment gaps
-Your tax, NI and pension contributions
-Your current and previous marital status
-Names and phone numbers of your close friends
-Details of any children, incl. date and place of birth, the school they attend, any special services they may be receiving and their medical history including immunisations and hospital addmissions
-Your driving history eg: points on licence etc
-Your income and any loans, credit cards, mortgage details etc
-Your shopping habits - store cards and reward cards you use
-Your Criminal Record, including "Spent" crimes and Cautions

No doubt I have missed some things out but this is a good start. I look forward to reading all about you and your family soon.

Sorry - I feel really embarrassed to admit this - but while I have an idea what S&M might be, I don't have a clue what BDSM is.

Could somebody please explain? Obviously I have led a sheltered life, but don't take the mess!!!

Stu

Bondage and discipline - the natural hobby of all tyranny's. Dungeons, torture etc. with more than a hint of sado masochism thrown in.

Makes you wonder about our leaders and what they have to hide.

Thanks for that. You learn something new every day.

Yeah, I know, I should get out more.

Stu

BDSM = Bondage, Disipline & Sadism & Masochism

S&M = Sadism & Masochism

Both are a lil the same but also wildly different depending on the context

Well said Unkle Monkey, i cant beleive the sheer hysteria going on here, and comments that border at best speculation. I,m English and work in Italy where they have had ID cards for years and i can tell you that the benefits for the country for outweigh any of the minor points. Sure if they forget there card and the police stop them its an incovenience but they all agree its a small price to pay, as they benefit tackling crime, terrorism and illegal immigration! My Italian work mates were reading some of the comments to your posting with sheer disbelief and humour!

So who was it that gave the Italians ID cards?

Was it that great bastion of freedom and Liberty, Mr. Mussolini...?
Or was it some other great democratic leader with unending respect for the people of the country?

Crime, terrorism and illegal immigration, great it all sounds dreamy.
At the most its a deterant, and we know how usless deterants are to the determined people.
You would think locking you in a room for years or killing you would prevent murder instantly.
But thats not the case.

I would welcome an official ID card, if it was properly run.
Requiring only the info it would need, not a heavily invasive & insecure database and optional.

I'm going to leave out the Civil liberty and other reasons why this is such a bad idea.
Mainly because the reason we are told we need the NIR is completely wrong in the first place.

Blair has pushed a number of reasons, none of which an NIR will be greatly effective.
terrorism, fraud, easy access to public services(??), and illegal immigration.

crime, terrorism, fraud and illegal immigration are independent of any petty ID scheme.
And i find it easy to access public services thank you Tony.
It is not just a small insignificant little hassle easily solved by people involved in the above.
But is a powerful weapon most criminals dream about.

Usually as there is today, they have people in passport, DVLA & gov bodys.
People can be easily placed there, bought or pressured.

What will happen?
A vast demand for peoples information and new Fake ID's that pass every test you can apply.
Professional gangs who will have no problem at all supplying the demand.
After all, they will make millions from it.

Resulting in, Criminal gangs finding it easier than ever before to commit fraud on a larger scale, undetected.
People being able to use the NIR info for any purpose you can think of.
Victims of crimes like, harassment, stalking, wife battering having no way to hide & no where to run.
Essentially, it would become the most powerful weapon in a criminal organizations arsenal.

Smaller, clumsy and amiture criminals being able to get hold of Official Fake ID and information with ease.
Anyone who thinks the NIR will be secure from access to the "bad" guys are living in a dream world.

The only ones that stands to benefit is the state, being able to track everyone but the real criminals, and the criminal organizations.

I have never committed an illegal act in my life, never smoked under age, stole anything or assaulted anyone etc... i even pay my taxes.
But i will not stand for such an act of absolute lunacy by anyone who is supposed to represent and protect us.

Now that is an absolute real risk, and about as funny as being gang raped or killed.

UK Abroad - huge differences between the Italian and the proposed British ID card!

It's not the ID card, it's the National Identity Register of which the card is just a non essential outcropping (it will even be voluntary) which is the problem and that is the cause of concern which thousands of people are worried about.

Why don't you find out more about the subject. This will have an impact on you sooner or later. For example, from the proposed implementation, the Inland Revenue will be able to obtain details on you from other agencies, as well as your bank...and they'll be able to track where you've been through the proposed road tax bug in your car. They'll be able to see whether you've used any state services or been to the doctor, because you'll also need your NIR number for that. Every bit of data about you as a person will be linked together on the NIR database, and if anything is wrong you could find that you have no social existence at all. It's far closer to the old USSR Internal Passport than it is to anything in Europe.

Oh yes, and I forgot - the gov't will likely sell all this data on to companies, in the same way that they do with Vehicle Registration Information, and as they used to do with the unedited electoral roll before they were 'found out'.

Sweden uses a Personnummer but that is nothing, nothing like what is proposed here. The Swedish Personnummber is far closer to our NI number, except it is issued at birth.

By the way, of course there is NO crime, illegal immigration etc. in Italy because of the ID card?

I doubt the Italian ID card has a vast system of interconnected databases in the background. With the UK system it will be possible, eventually, for everyones move to be tracked. This will allow for the government agencies and of course thsoe private secotr companies that labour love so much to see exactly where you go and how long you stay there. Not to mention the need to produce the ID to withdraw money from your account over the proposed limit of £100 (is it stil that anyone?) when you have the rest of the proper paperwork.

Without a doubt the UK system is a method of control, extremem control too, more so than china/russia have ever had on their citizens. Your Italian workmates may indeed be laughing, but somehow when these systems are finally rolled out across most of the western world like i'm sure the plan is they may wish they had listened to us & stopped it dead in the water before it even got going like we are doing

Of course if neither of you have anything to hide then why are you hiding behind monikers & why have you not furnished us with your real names / NI numbers & addresses?? After all you have nothing to hide & at least 500K ppl with have instant access to that info under the NIR system if not many more

That sort of attitude was prevalent during the 1930's and 1940's when the Italians fought on the side of the Nazis.

If it wasn't for the free thinking, civil liberty concerned British, Italy would now be an outpost of the Third Reich.

There's actually no evidence for this intention. Those of us who follow bureaucracies doubt it from first principle, because the system is about creating unprecedented power (or the illusion of it) for officialdom. That is unlikely to be given away. The electoral roll was exploited by local government, upon which it confers no particular power, as a means of mitigating the unfunded mandate involved.

Remember the central government already has its hands in everyone's pockets - it is nonsense to talk about it "profiting" from selling information. Passing out information weakens the state's relative power except when (as in the DVLA case) it is actually being passed to private enforcers of parastatal power who help squeeze out independence.



Actually the Swedish system is very nasty, if not quite as nasty. But the Swedes are inured to it, and there is quite a strong culture of official responsibility to the citizen... But also a strong culture of registering your number for everything. See:
http://www.thelocal.se/discuss/viewtopic.php?t=7425
So in Sweden either you are completely monitored or you don't exist depending on whether you have been allocated a personnummer or not. But this has somehow failed to abolish crime:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Sweden



Don't forget "terrorism", of which Italy has had a huge amount over the years - most of it targetted kidnapping and assasination. Which would be aided by a national register and tracking. (Remember DVLA, company registers and electoral registers have all been used in this country to target intimidatory tactics by animal-rights extremists.)

I should think that the Sicilian authorities find ID of tremendous use in their ongoing violent struggle with the Mafia - not. (The distinction between crime and terrorism is largely a political one, but the public and press seem to lose their marbles more readily when propaganda is about the latter.)

Actually the Italian ID card is a piece of paper isssued by local authorities. Like everything else Italian government does, it has a largely fictional relationship to real life. Suggest the Italian workmates cited may have been taking the piss...