NO2ID

Harlequin,

Spot on analysis of why the 'personnumber' and the ID cards system and database are largely acceptable to the Swedish population but why such ideas don't sit well with Brits.

There seem to be (to generalise) two traditional and often opposing European camps, of which a lot was recently made following the French 'non' to the EU Constitution:

The Anglo-Saxon or 'Anglosphere' camp - traditionally English speaking countries with a history of Common Law rule and legal systems based on the original English Bill of Rights. The Anglosphere nations are generally accepted to be the UK, US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other former parts of the British Empire. Citizens in the Anglosphere are generally distrustful of governments that try to extend their reach past a certain point and they have a firm sense of just governance. The ultimate expression of that distrust and strong desire for just governance resulted in the birth of the US and the powerful individualist sentiment that was the driving force behind the writing of the US Constitution. Government exists to serve the people and its scope must be limited to protect the individual. Individual rights are inalienable, God-given.

The opposite camp might be described as 'Continental' or 'Napoleonic' - or, in EU speak, 'the social model' - ultimately, 'communism light'. Under this system, the government sits at the heart of society. Government is expected to intervene as much as is 'necessary' to promote 'social justice', regardless of whether the government's goals impinge on the liberty and goals of responsible individuals. This system is most associated with France, early Germany and modern Germany and manifests in the form of strict government interference in almost everything - from the strict 35-hour working week to the shapes of bananas that citizens should be allowed to purchase (sadly, this sort of thing is seeping into the UK through the Franco-German EU). Government exists to promote the common good. Individual rights are granted by the government, according to the common good.

The latter system demands a certain level of public trust in centralised planning, the first does not require the same level of trust. It is the second system where ID cards are generally considered acceptable - as can be seen by most continental European nations having traditionally issued 'papers', where the UK did not.

Stephen

I think you put the various points I was trying to make Stephen, rather more elequently than I so I thank you for your post.

I do think it's important to realise however that whilst a non-compulsory form of ID card exists in France (along side legislation compelling foreign nationals to identify themslevs to any government or police official) and many of the Scandavian countires, alongside a form of NIR that does create a cradle to birth form of audit trail that can be used for surveliance purposes, what is being proposed in Britain is far more far-reaching, and far more invasive than anything that exists elswhere. I for one think your average Britain would have to endure a huge culture paradigm shift for us to ever except as point of principle that it was accetpable for any government to know everything there was to know about us - that's why there is so much opposition to these porposals - they fundamentally change our relationship with the state.

For information - It has been claimed by some media that Denmark has a national identity card. I doesn't. What it does have, however, is a National Insurance card which bears the holder's photograph and is used for proof of identity when claiming benefits or medical treatment. That card is used by many Danes as a convenient form of identification for other purposes.

I'm told that there is no National Identity Register as such, but if you move address, you are obliged to notify the authorities both for taxation purposes and also so that the National Insurance people know where to contact you.

Whilst this is still potentially intrusive, it doesn't seem anything like as bad as the Swedish system, and is vastly more acceptable than what is being proposed for the UK.

Stu

Pretty much the same in the UK with your driving licence; driving licences are used from time to time as ID for small things (like picking up undelivered mail from the Post Office) and it's an offence not to tell the driving licence people if you change your address (though many people don't bother).

I suppose the difference is that you aren't legally bound to have a driving licence whereas it's pretty unlikely that you won't be registered for tax and NI.

When I lived in Finland for 5 years despite being a Brit and an EU national, I still had to have a "residence card" that had my name, address, Finnish Social security numberand a picture of my face on it.

Although not universal, I did find that I was obliged to use it in order to complete many everday trnascations. I was at the time working for a Finnish company and found that in order for them to pay me my salary and pay it into a Finnish bank account, I had to take my residence card along to the bank in order to open an account.

It was also necessary to present it in order to be examined by a doctor when I came down with flu and to get a perscription from a pharmacy.

I did once ask a person at the local tax office (who I also had to register with after having arrived from the UK) if it was necessary to have to (a) carry this card and (b) always produce it when demanded. She replied that it wasn't legally binding on any foreign national to have the card or to produce it but that in practical terms, life without it would be extremely difficult. She said most organs of State expect you to prove who you, prove your entitlement to a government service or aid and to identify yourself when called to do so - espcially if you're a foreigner. She implied that if you didn't do either of these things, you would more than likely be denied access to the service to which you are entitled. Worst of all, becuase she openly ackowledged that Finland is both a racist and xenophobic society, she said it was basically essentil for foreigners to have a residence card in order to prove their entitlement to live in Finland and access services from the state. If you don't have it. you'll be treated with a lot of suspcion as I myself was - despite not being black and being a EU citizen.

I was aware that a form of audit trail of sorts was being kept on me - i.e., every time I accessed a public service of some kind or had any dealing with the state but I never got to access this or find out how extensive it was.

I didn't even know that in UK "it is an offence not to tell the driving licence people if you change your address". Why is that? Why should a clerk in the transport department know your address?

If any bureaucrat asks for my address I usually tell them "no fixed abode" (that is, of course, if they don't have to send something to me by post). I do this ever since I found out that it is a legal address.

It is little things like that that make it harder, now, for anyone in UK to be anonymous and to be "not found". How much worse will it be once the NIR is in place?

What if you wanted to flee from an abusive relationship? Or for any other personal - legitimate - reason didn't want to be "found" by someone. Even now all they would have to do would be to go to the transport department (someone will sell them the information - there are numerous anecdotes to be read if you search for them about government bureaucrats selling information) and find out that person's address. This can be done easily by matching up the photo', name and address.

On another thread people were discussing the id card Bill's requirement to "register" your address and what a "pain" this would be to homeless people (who theoretically would have to visit bureaucrats and pay out large sums of money every time they moved from one "shelter" to another or a cardboard box located in one park to a cardboard box located in another park). Is this the case already with "driving licences"? Or does the transport department accept "no fixed abode"? They would have to with homeless people, what else are they going to put on their application for a driving licence? "On a mates floor"?