NO2ID

Could people suggest as to why many people have justifiably LOTS to hide:

I can think of people like:

1) People with "socially unnacceptable" illnesses who would not want that information shared outside professional medical contacts.

2) People fleeing domestic violence who do not wish to be traced.

3) "Spent" criminal convictions - although that's already largely redundant. Very little is spent these days.

4) People who do not want their living arrangements made 'public' (ie. people living alone would become increasingly vulnerable).

Others?

D.

People who have witnessed how corrurpt governments can abuse having such information to hand. Nazi Germany being the most recognisable one. Even if you trust this government (which I personally do not), what about your kids or grand-kids, who may not get the government anyone wants?

Do people want to be free, or the property of a state, that could change in nature at any point in the future.

I choose freedom every time!

IMHO those people who come up with this lame excuse tend to be rather insecure, they need their little reminders that they actually exist and therefore they see the card as a godsend, 'Gosh, somebody is actually interested in who they are' and they can dribble around with their comfy little bit of plastic full of their own self importance. They really are rather sad. Many of them are als surpressed bullies and would get such a thrill seeing the state do the dirty work for them.

In fact I find many of them inadequate.

Justin.

An ID database is like Pandora's Box. Once created we can never be sure it's destroyed and I can already think of about 10 reasons to be terrified.

Ever watch Gattaca?

Police can sample the DNA of anyone arrested (eg peaceful protesters) and keep the sample forever. Even if current legislation doesn't allow DNA to be stored on the ID database, what's stopping the Police National Database being linked through your Unique Identity Number?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/13 ... _database/

Same thing with CCTV facial recognition or RFID tags embedded in the cards. All in the name of security of course.

You also better be careful about which civil servants you upset.

If Parliament grants access to our bank accounts, you might want to keep an eye on paternity suits & miscalculated taxes.

Our civil rights are disappearing fast. At what point do we stand up for ourselves? Blocking this £5.5 billion ID database could be our last opportunity.

If we fail here, will we be able to stop Britain becoming a surveillance state?

Blair played the fear card on Iraq WMD. Did you recognise it again with ID Cards?

When the media prints sensationalist stories about ID information being used against anti-government protestors - will Blair or his successors even mind? When we become afraid to criticise the government, our crumbling democracy will collapse.

There are so many aspects of what normal law abiding people might wish to hide from all and sundry.

The Government is still dithering / keeping secret about exactly which of the "51 registerable facts" that they will force you to give up will appear on the face of the ID card itself, which ones will be secretly encoded on the Smart Card chip, which ones will only be held on the centralised National Identity Register databases.

Who might reasonably and justifieably object to having. for example, the current Addresses and all Previous Addresses on the ID Card ?

<ul><li>Police officiers, especially undercover investigators.

<li>Prison officers

<li>British Secret agents and spies

<li>Special Operations soldiers and commandos

<li>People in Witness Protection schemes</ul>

(N.B. all of the above are also at extreme risk of having their working undercover aliases blown, with possible risk to their lives, by the use of Biometric Identifiers)

<ul><li>Medical researchers, Company Directors and Shareholders taking advantage of the changes in the law regarding the publication of their home addresses if they are in fear of intimidation by animal rigts extremists

<li>Even though Medical Records are meant to be excluded from the NIR, a Previous Address record would reveal any long term care in say a mental hospital.

<li>Similarly, Criminal Records are not meant to be on the NIR, but a Previous Address record will show periods spent in prison.

<li>Anybody from the "wrong part of town" who finds themselves "on the other side of the tracks" e.g. in sectarian areas of Belfast

<li>Anybody travelling abroad on holiday or business - one of the elementary travel security precautions is not to let burglars and thieves know that your house is going to be empty for the next two weeks. This is why people are advised not to write big llegible luggage labels with their home address on them - these have been abused many times in the past. N.B. your current Passport does not have your home adddress on it, so this is not necessary for foreign travel.

<li>People who wish to protect their parents and relatives from harassment - the chances are that one or more of your Previous Addresses are Current Addresses of your parents, or divorced partners and children.</ul>

The problem with the classic line "If you have nothing to hade, you have nothing to fear" is the inherent assumption that we, as individuals, have no right to personal privacy.

It does this by presuming that one is guilty untill you prove yourself innocent; it is usually, if we are working in a Just system, for the accuser to prove the guilt of those he accuses, not for the accused to scurry around trying to disprove something that may be a false charge.

And how could it be any other way?

But by insisting that we all should register our details and fingerprints in a central database, just incase we need the "convenience" of being able to provide the passing copper with a thumbprint should he demand it, we are shown the Governments true perceptions of Justice.

However, to explain this to the man on the street, at your street stall for instance, is not completely easy, and can often do more harm than good.
That is why the repetition of this mantra in the various media is so effective is its cleverly calculated work.....

Somewhere along the way to where we are now, a heck of a lot of decent, ordinary, people have come to a state where they feel inferior to those in officialdom, and consequently feel the need to, as soon as anyone mentions the "ID Card" issue, protest that they have nothing to hide, and then to ask in return "what are you afriad of?

I don't claim to know exactly where this came from, but i do know that it isn't the mindset of Free Individuals who consider themselves a member of a functioning democratic country - it is the response of an oppressed and uninformed serf, who would rather give up his inalienable rights to show how good a citizen he is, than think about the matter and ask questions.

A better response, and one i read a little time ago, would be to reject the premise in its entirety ;

The question is not what i have to hide, or if i am afraid, but whether the Government has the right or need to hold so much information about me for its own uses."

(Or something very similar)


So, in reply to your original question, i would add;

5)Surely it is my right to keep my details private if i so choose, unless i commit a criminal act, under which circumstances i forfeit part of that right.

Unfortunatly, it will soon be a civil, if not criminal, offence to not give your details to the Government, making a mockery of the reason i have just given

Maybe there is something here that could influence some MP's who are notorious at hiding stuff e.g. incomes, directorships etc.

Secret Organisations?

Because if its linked to bank accounts, then they become transparent UNLESS there is a hidden agenda by exempting MP's, the Royals, the police etc.

Maybe changing tack to force the government to publish public servants disclosures as per ID database would make them think twice...!

Because I am not going to be at all happy if these people will be allowed to exist out of a system they brought in to protect their rights on the backs of ours.

Nothing to hide, nothing to fear is a slogan for fools.

Nothing to hide from whom?

Nothing to fear from whom?

Do the innocent really have *nothing* to hide? What about their sexual acitvities? Bank details? Medical records?

With the proposed cards and database, this proposal amounts to claiming there's nothing we need hide from all of the following:

* Government ministers.

* Civil servants administering the database.

* MI5, GCHQ, et al.

* The police.

* Civil servants administering the identity checks in numerous govt departments.

* Officials in public bodies.

That's a lot of people and even if most are honest and decent, it would only take a minority of unscrupulous, over zealous or corrupt officials to cause considerable harm.

As for the information people may wish to hide one could add the following:

* journalists protecting sources who are uncovering corruption

* political activists may wish to hide sensitive personal information from the govt that might be used against them

* scientists who perform experiments on animals who may wish to hide their details from militant animal rights activists

* some people may be wary of publicising their religion lest they get persecuted for it (I was reading reports today that anti-semitic attacks have soared in Britain...)

None of these need involve hiding anything that's actually illegal.

The government is asking us to trust them -- that means trusting everyone from ministers down to individual civil servants. Most of them probably can be trusted, but the minority who can't may wield considerable power with measures such as these.

James

Nothing to hide nothing o fear .........

Sounds like something that would go down well with bush supporters, not people with any intelligence, of which the govement allways underestimate the number of.

These stupid little sound bites, should be answered without any more respect than they deserve, keep it short.

Nothing to hide nothing o fear .........Said hittler and his party.

Or

The Jews didnt have anything to hide before the hollocaust.

Or

Nothing to hide nothing to fear........ except a dark authoritarian world, with no freedom or future for my kids.

That statement leads me to think that you should get involved, if not for you then for your children...

I am thinking of my children and what world we are going to give them, what do you think they will feel when we hand over a world of suspicion, of corporate control, of herding and branding...?

Our duty is to the here and now and to secure their future, a few people are making this happen to us and their future, these acts will not harm or even slow them down but it is a legacy so grim that our children may never be able to even lift their faces against it, let alone fight it.

Where are the biggest forums in uk ?

We need to start pasting in this site.

How about a vote on the old spray paint up the wall advertising, I think people are in the mood while commuting for these sort of things, (where their tax is spent). I would be willing to risk it, but would wait for everyones oppinion first.

How many people even know of this site a 1000? There are 50+ million people in this country, most of them arnt allowed time to breath let alone think for themselves, read beyond the sun newspaper, or try to resist, control.

Ill do my bit, tell me what it is.

I am not able to speak for NO2ID as I am a humble member and would not in any case encourage you or others to place themselves outside of the law.

In my other work, which is fighting corrupt child protection systems, we campaign peacefully and offer support and advice, on the other hand Fathers 4 Justice who is the opposite of us in this respect have huge media viewing and space, so whats the balance?

Now, last August, we held a rally at Trafalgar Sq, it was a nice saturday and the square was packed, we were only there for four hours and only thirty of us in total, we didn't chant or cause much of a commotion yet we got three thousand signatres on our petition and we educated a hell of a lot of people in those four hours.

Now, if were more organised, had a bigger crew etc, I suspect we could have made a real go of it that day but apathy is the key here, break the sheeps apathy and grab their attention, educate and spread the word, by whatever means you can, I have put leaflets in all the local tobbacconists and the classified boards at Tesco's and Safeways, the local advice centres have been given leaflets and I have left some in all the local libraries and social services offices, hospitals and GP's.

Its slow, its ponderous, you probably are going to get a 50% chance of someone looking further into it rather than letting the media define their thinking.

Guerilla tactics would work, we put a banner up over the M4 near Glos. last year, it was up there for ages until the police after Glos SS complained cut it down, imagine HOW MANY motorists saw that banner?

My only advice is to think before action, I cannot advocate breaking the law but I am not anyone to tell people what to do with their lives or translate their passion for whats happening, if you have children, think on what being charged criminally may have an impact on their welfare and future as well BUT... also BE your own person and stand up for what YOU think is right.

Personally think a "spray" campaign wouldn't do any harm but it does damage property and that could reflect back on NO2ID

How about turning "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" right on its head. Like...

"If you've nothing to hide, you've the MOST to fear.

After all, it's YOU who'll be paying for the ID Card scheme, and it's YOUR details that'll be on it. If YOU forget to tell the government you've bought a new house, they'll know where to find you and fine you. When everything you do is recorded in your file, and the government's computers go scanning for unusual behaviour or anything they don't like, it's YOUR file they'll be searching through.

But the criminals won't be touched. THEY will have stolen ID (perhaps yours). Or duplicate ID, or no ID at all. But THEY will have nothing to fear. They won't have paid. They won't be fined. And they won't get caught."

how about

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVED GUILTY

Yep, that's definitely one of the best replies! I find it goes a little over a lot of people's heads though, and was looking for something that got them more personally. I think we all need a number of angles on this one, in the hope that one of them might get through!

Well its very simple message, And we dont want to over complicate things.

As thats when people tend to turn off.

If someone says the blighted phrase to me...my usual reply is.

Then you won't mind me comming round to to your house to search through your bedroom draws. After all, you have nothing to hide!


Some less pithy arguments include...

If I have nothing to hide you should not be watching me.
Those with something to hide will have nothing to fear.
Every body SHOULD have something to hide, that is being human.
I have a right to privacy until you have proof that I have abused it.

Thanks Guest - those are all much better than my effort and just what I was looking for!

Yes I've come across the "Nothing to hide" argument many time when explaining the ID/NIR to people. What I do is simply say "Everyone has something to hide" and give people a few minutes for that statement to sink in.

Then explain about people suffering from domestic abuse, people trying to go straight, perhaps you want to hide from your partner you have been downloading midget clown porn.

Once people realise that they do have something to hide (We all do) then they realise ID cards is something the should object to.

Garry Perez

We are, of course, fighting for the principles - presumption of innocence / right to privacy - but I have found that some 'nothing to hide' folk can be made to think twice when you point out how easily they could become a suspect in a database state. As easily, say, as getting a letter addressed to the wrong person at your home address - and who's not experienced that at some point?

In the database state, it's not what whether you think you've done something wrong, it's whether they think you've done something wrong. And if they control your identity, how are you going to prove your innocence - when it's your ID that will have drawn you to their attention in the first place?

You may have been pulled in because you were tracked to a certain place at a certain time (Gordon Brown's sharing of retail data with the police...), or because your behaviour fits a 'profile' or deviates from some definition of 'normal'. Or because the technology simply isn't up to matching amongst 50 million fingerprints, and the police will - despite all assurances - be allowed to go on 'fishing expeditions'. How many Shirley McKies will it take to explode the fingerprinting myth?

'Nothing to hide, nothing to fear' cuts right to the heart of civil liberties - those things which protect us from the arbitrary exercise of power by the authorities. There is nothing more arbitrary than assigning a person an official identity and then treating them as nothing more than a number, or piece of data to be matched.

Every month or so a plane is turned back from the US because a person with the same name as someone on the Homeland Security blacklist is on the flight. One was just last week. Even your name can make you a suspect in an ID regime. OK, you hopefully won't find yourself rotting in jail for 30 years, but why should you and several hundred other innocent people (who had nothing to hide) have your holidays or work trips ruined, face interrogation and likely recurrence because of a crazy form of 'guilt by association'?

It's a different tack from showing that there are people who do legitimately have something to hide, but its one that allows you to unpick some of the complexities of civil liberties while giving tangible examples - examples that the person may have experienced themself (the wrongly addressed letter) or see that there's no way they could predict or avoid (the arbitrariness of guilt by data-association).

And once people realise/admit that ID is arbitrary, and not necessarily 'the truth', you'd be amazed how many of their other arguments start to sound a bit hollow.

***

This is a really important thread. If you are going to be talking to the public and do nothing else in preparation, work out a coherent, memorable answer to, "But surely if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear?"

Apart from, "Why do you oppose ID cards?" this is still the question I get asked the most. And I expect it will be for a long time to come.

I'm not sure if forums are the right place for this campaign, in my experience a lot of people who post on them really do feel they have nothing to hide and are all too eager to tell the world about every single thing they get up to

As for the Nothing To Hide brigade, the main problem I've come up against is people countering the argument with the old Tin Foil Hat Brigade argument, treating NO2ID supporters as if we're nothing more than paranoid conspiracy theorists. The argument I use most is the fact that the scheme will be pointless and expensive- no-one likes wasting money, whether they have something to hide or not!

If it's someone you don't know and they come out with that line, start asking them questions.

"What religion are you? Are you straight/gay? How much do you earn? When was the last time you went to the bank? How much is in your account?" - until they say "that's none of your business".

Then you say "point proven".

Tell them 'The law is only enforced against the law abiding'; it may take them ages to work that out.

A country whose people are so addicted to comfort and luxury as the British, and become lazy and incapable of thinking for themselves, deserve their fate. 'I'm alright, Jack' means that they will let anything be foisted on them by Conman Blair until it directly affects them.

Although I particularly despise New Labour, I don't support any of the mainstream parties. I remember the previous Tory government for its petty corruption and incompetence, so it's a case of 'whoever you vote for, the goverenment gets in'.

Surely this argument should be applied to those who wish to inflict ID cards and personal monitoring upon us.
If they have nothing to hide, why do they need to keep such close checks on our movements, activities and thoughts?