NO2ID

Hiya
I've ended up here after following links in an email I was sent, and I have to ask, is this for real??
If so, I am abolutely appaled. As the mother of a pre-schooler, it concerns me that in the not too distant future, my daughter could have to provide her fingerprints for no good reason at all. It is totally unacceptable and I'm b****y angry!!
So, what can I do to stop it, both for my daughter, and within the community we live?

welcome, to the real world.

Bliars brave new world.

Welcome. There are many ways that you can help to fight this. For starters, have a look at http://www.no2id.net/getInvolved/index.php

Dillymint, out of interest, was the email the one that's doing the rounds from the website www.leavethemkidsalone.com ?

I've sent it out to my mailing list, and hopefully others have. There's more info on the site. If Dillymint's post IS as a result of that email, then I suggest we all try to send it to our friends and colleagues (obviously taking time to choose who, rather than spam everyone's inbox) because if it works for one it may work for more.

And yes, it's most certainly true. There are all kinds of surveillance and breaches of rights being mounted against children at the moment. Try www.arch-ed.org.uk or www.databasemasterclass.blogspot.com for more info, and tell your friends and colleagues because I'm sure they'll be outraged too.

And, as Geraint noted, NO2ID is a good place to start. As your child gets older she will be put onto the national identity register too, and there are no guarantees that info from her children's index file (a very detailed electronic file that she WILL be on) won't go onto her identity register file and follow her for life.

but what is so wrong about a national database containing dna finger prints etc etc to be shared amongst government agencies and the poilce??, this could go a long way to solving many crimes where fingerprints and dna cannot be matched - its not exactly a hardship to give a smaple/print when you weigh this up against the possible benefits to society

lewis

hmmm, provided - the data is managed properly, it could be a good thing, im not sure about how safe the data is, but yes it could have great benefits to society, if its implemented correctly - who knows.

Is DNA or fingerprint evidence infallible.
Ask Peter Hamkin or ask Wpc Shirley Mckie or ask the Houston crime lab.
It's the old ID cards will be a blanket of justice bringing the evil doers to trial using a database which has not been tried or tested.
Your trusting a government who's IT record is disgraceful,The Libra system the NHS database etc, etc.
Why should I put trust in a government who's IT record is a disgrace.
Do some research and see what you find.

Dillymint, it's real alright! It seems to me reading other posts on here that they are 'capturing' the youngsters first! After all, it's fairly easy, isn't it. Think about it. Your child/children are already registered at school or college, a lot of their personal details are known to the Authoritys already, everything from what innoculations/vacines they've had, to what they eat for lunch, and any other numerous details about them. It would be, therefore, much easier to start at the bottom, i.e. younger members of society and gradually 'work their way up'.
If parents/guardians are told that 'it's in their childs' own interests' that these details are recorded and stored, then there shouldn't be too many dissenters. After all, every parent wants 'what's best for their child', dont' they?

Imagine them having to start with identifying a load of crusty old pensioners, many of whom will already be living in Care/Residential Homes.
Confused, wouldn't come into it! I visited a dear friend of mine today who 'lives' in one of these places, and most of them don't even know what day of the week it is!

Everything. Why should random government officials be able to find out about your genetic make-up? The government have already been caught selling personal information from the DVLA database - imagine the implications if insurance companies or potential employers were able to obtain information about people's susceptibility to genetic diseases without their knowledge or consent.


WPC Shirley McKie was falsely accused of leaving a thumb print at the scene of a murder. It took her the best part of a decade to clear her name. There will be many, many false matches. The fingerprints stored on the National Identity Register will be partial prints rather than the full rolled prints that police normally take after arresting someone. You can get some idea about how many false matches there will be if you consider that there was a 1 in 5 verification failure rate for fingerprints when biometric enrolment trials were conducted on behalf of the Home Office.

Consider also the effect that accusations will have on the lives of innocent individuals who find they must account for their movements to prove their innocence in response to erroneous forensic accusations. Can you prove where you were on Monday evening three weeks ago? Forensics are fairly good at providing additional evidence to confirm suspicions that the police already have. Using flawed forensics to find suspects for the police to investigate is not something that I am comfortable with.


Having weighed the negligible benefits to society against the grave risks to our civil liberties, I will certainly refuse to cooperate.

Not at the moment, but once we've got our super ID cards, I can show I was buying fags at the offy at the exact time that the victim was killed. With the candlestick. In the library.

There may be all sorts on benefits to a national DNA database interms of crime detection etc...I am sure all sorts of measures would help with crime if that is your only goal and you think that is all society should be concerned with.

However, DNA is WHAT you are not just who you are. No goverment, now or in the future can be trusted with as much power as a DNA datatbase could bring. Human beings have not changed so much that they can be trusted with this, only the technology has changed. What would the Nazis have done with such power? We can never be sure that such technology will not be abused, that is FAR TOO HIGH A PRICE to pay.

And there is a principle here, you may owe society many things, but not the code to what your are. That must always belongs to you if you are to stand with dignity and equality in your relationship with the state. And this remains true whether or not the Police would find it convenient to have, and whether or not the State has encouraged you to be fearful of your fellow citizens such that you would give this right up gladly.

You might be able to demonstrate that your card was involved in the purchase of cigarettes at the offy, but unless they also caught your image on camera (for which an ID card is not required) that doesn't provide much of an alibi for you. So, are you expecting to swipe your ID card somewhere every 10 minutes to ensure that you have a cover story when your fingerprints turn out to bear a slight similarity to those left at the scene of a crime?

fghgfhgfh wrote:




And what happens when someone wants to frame you. When they will use the informations the NIR has got on you to put you at the scene of the crime by changing your whereabouts and placing your fingerprints and DNA on the weapon. Afterall they will have a sample of all your DNA/PRINTS. How convenient! it will be child play to frame ordinary people to save the skin of some rich businessmen etc... I can see a new industry coming to life.

For one thing, there is no guarantee (and indeed, in my case, little expectation) that the database would be restricted to such benevolent purposes.

You are in effect giving a loaded gun to an institution that you have absolutely no guarantees over when it comes to the people who will be running it in the years to come.

Moreover, when you look at the way that things like tax credits have turned into fiascos (and that's a lot simpler than your proposed system), or indeed the Home Office has handled the Criminal Records system or foreign prisoners...I for one am not inclined to hand over a system on which my liberty depends to such!

There is also the danger that such systems are regarded as "infallible" and when you are wrongly identified as a rapist, no matter your alibis and defense you will just get a "computer says it was you" attitude.

...or on the other hand, the 'chip & pin' ID card becomes the perfect alibi for every russian mafia gang intent on fiendishly undermining our beautiful capitalist system.

"Nip down the offy with me ID card and get me twenty silk cut will you Alexei? I'm just going to do a spot of undermining capitalism while you're out..."

Community pressure works well. If you know a group of other concerned mothers you can apply pressure to the schools and most importantly the decision makers, which means the headmaster and the school governors. Letter writing to these people can be effective but so can the more direct approach of speaking to them face to face.

Lets say you get invited to look at a school for your child and get shown around and maybe you are being shown around with other parents, where you have an audience. It works very well to put your question to them in front of as many others as possible so they are forced to make a reply.

Ask them about why they think they need to fingerprint your child like a criminal and how that will affect them emotionally in an historic reversal of legal tradition that reaches back 1000 years of being innocent until proven guilty. Remember this is fundamentally an exercise in brainwashing children to be brought up in an environment where their every move is not trusted. It is a complete abuse of the parent's trust. No wonder home schooling is becoming ever more popular where I live.

"Not at the moment, but once we've got our super ID cards, I can show I was buying fags at the offy at the exact time that the victim was killed. With the candlestick. In the library."

The problem is that you presume that you will have access to this data as part of a legal defence.

That's unlikely.

Currently the police can seize CCTV recordings if they have reasonable suspicion that they could provide evidence in a criminal prosecution.

The defence teams have no such right to seize CCTV, however much they suspect that the recordings may provide an alibi or a defence against a prosecution.

Likewise, the data protection act allows police access to data to gain evidence to support a prosecution; literally "the prevention or detection of crime, the apprehension or prosecution of offenders, or the assessment or collection of any tax or duty or of any imposition of a similar nature"

However there are no such stringent grounds for seizing data for a defence.


There is a fairly consistent history within UK data protection/access law of this asymmetry in the right to use data in legal cases and as yet we have no reason to believe that the NIR would be any different.


You can ask the owner for the footage or data, but if they don't give it to you, you're out of luck. Your alibi is unsubstantiated.

The expectation is that the police will properly investigate an alibi and seize the footage for you, but you have to ask how likely they are to sabotage their own case and lose a prosecution; the best possible expectation is that wrongful convictions like this will be rare and you might be lucky, but your liberty should not really depend on luck.