NO2ID

I refer to the imigrants illegal and otherwise who gain access to the UK and take advantage and abuse our system and generousity.

I'm talking about tha bastards that abuse our system, I'm talking about the reports of them raping our citizens, mugging our people, burgling our houses, pretending to be bloody dentists and screwing up our teeth!!!!!

Let us deal with our own rapists, muggers, murderers, con men etc etc before trying to deal with import versions!!

And do you think that the 'rapists, murderes, con men etc etc' will be moving around holding a proper ID card and showing it on request? I still fail to see how ID cards will stop the kind of people you describe. Unless of course they become compulsory to carry and every police person can stop us and ask for it! But even then how do you know you have a 'rapist' infront of you? Or will they transmit our ID details to a central database and we wait for the outcome... I suposee you could take this further... the state could create databases on political beliefs, colour, race, religion... I mean whys top at 'murderers' only?

N.

USA - No they don't.

It is merely a requirement to have it in one's posession whilst driving; and a custom that it is produced when purchasing alcohol in supermarkets, or for proving ID generally. etc etc.

It is certainly not an offence to go about in public in the US without one.

M

Sometimes I really fear for the way this country is going...

For the regulars in here, this discussion is excellent training material for dealing with the population in general, really it is if you examine it closely.

It exhibits close minded thinking, refusal to cede a point if a point is proven, deep ingrained victims of hype and the media.

If Bliar was able to produce concrete evidence one that the ID system would not be absued, that our positions would be protected, that corporate controls would not have the ability to use us as their playthings, then maybe NO2ID's position would be extremely hard.

If Bliar was able to PROVE a real threat, that by having the cards WOULD protect every innocent person in the UK, then our job again would be that much harder.

But he CANNOT prove this, it is a LIE!

Yet tonight I have seen virtually the same rubbish the BNP throw out as did the NF and the BM did in the eighties, all immigrants are responsible for our woes, lets throw out the "B******s"

Yes, there are scroungers in amongst the human flotsam that washes up against our shores, there are criminals as well but the majority are people in desperate need of succour.

In their upbringing they have this vision of this island near France, a country that stands for liberty, freedom and law, justice is its lifeblood, never too proud to assist those in need...

This is how people "see" the UK, they see security and safety and protection, this is our global image, much removed from the realities of prison camps, abuse and rejection.

They come to our doors from all manners of terror, they may have sold their lives possessions to gamble on getting in, they may even have been subjected to the most horrendous transit arrangements en route.

To be met with the clarion call of...

Let throw out the B******s

I am ashamed to be called British

Guest Peter Manktelow thanks for your reply..its good to hear feedback and I like your use of words "misguided" and "paranoia"..interesting considering as you say you've been the proud cardholder for 10 years. Good one ....or possibly not. Your opinion is great but bearing in mind that it is only your opinion here are some facts worth reading concerning the pounding our civil liverties already have taken under the godly guidance of your revered and oh so wise Tony: Civil Rights eroded so far http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/ ... ory=616332
Good hey...
And then ..how about this ..livil liberties violated under terrorism bill http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politi ... ory=617007
Now lest we forget that we now have the added advantage of three week trained goons strolling our streets..I'me sure if you live in the U.K you must have seen a few black,white,illuminescent green jacket coloured goons, wanna be cops strollin aimlessly up and down your high street, occasionally peerin into shops trying to look busy.
Heres another article from the Independent........ reality ......muslins now more likely to be stopped and searched http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/ ... ory=616000
Excellent?....I'me afraid Pete you need to wake up and smell your cappicino coffee because unfortunately we live in a real world where we are involved in an illegal war....Iran or Syria lookin like the next likely targets and we have a Prime Minister that is gleefully trying to fool you with this id scheme/scham just so he can take away civil liberties that are everyones basic human right. Picture those very same goons but now with the added advantage of being able to stop you and ask where your card is...Great!....so long as you dont look like a muslim... I think a BIG part of the present problem is the main media and I'me referring to the BBC and ITV news both are compliscent in carrying the lies of this Government. Hark back to the lead up to the Iraq war and both the beeb and ITV carried these complete LIES of WMD deployable within 45 min as fact..we know now they were lies..stories...but both companies carried these lies as fact, Gregg Dyke lost his job just trying to mention the possibility that the whole story may be a lie.Notice how the beeb never mentions ID cards....too sensitive....anyone spot ol Alistair Cambell is back working for Tony...he slipped back into his seat quietly..Gregg Dyke back at the beeb?..Not a chance ..People need to realise that both BBC and ITV report stories not fact(as a thought..if you get a spare moment sit down and take note of the news stories and their order on the bbc news and then the itv news and you will notice something strange..they are always 99% identicle apart from one having a red background and one blue...then have a look the euronews..statistically..what are the chances of that?) ....if you want the real news you need to move away from the main media which is trying to brainwash the masses...thank begeezes for the internet..independent sites and I recommend http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/index.html
excellent for getting a bit of real news.........Just to add a thought anyone spot the government has put their scham on hold until after the elections..?...http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politi ... ory=616694
Ha...its time to make sure you're registered to vote...and then USE YOUR VOTE....[/quote]

Another ponderance for steve ID is very good.....sounds like your brains been nicely fried....at some point everyone in the UK has immigrant links..stop being so narrow mindedly racist...so all crimes in UK are committed by "illegal immigrants"..?..the economy of the UK to some degree runs on those so called "illegal immigrants"..they arent the problem..the problem is narrow minded racists....in fact thinking about it steve...if you changed your language to affrikaans..and substituted "illegal immigrants" with the word "nie blankes/blacks"....it sounds exactly like something a typical apartheid thinking white boer afrikaner would have said....scary stuff

Ancientone....spot on....

Stunt dude

if u had read the post you would see that that's not what I said.

I said lets deal with our own criminals before inviting in more.

You lot of so called 'intelligent people with all the facts' really are a bunch of self righteous tossers.

There's no discussing with you all. You all made up your mind from the start that you didn't want to help sorting out the country and are kicking you're heels in.

Are you all rebellious poilt children with rich parents??

Here we go again... I am more working class than you can possibly imagine, a son of migrants, anything I have came through my own work, I worked in kitchens, taxis, factories, etc you name it...

We are waiting for you - and the government - to tell us exactly how ID cards will sort out the country. Like many on this forum, I fail to see how you have made a reasonable case for ID cards. What exactly is your rationale?

We are here because we are against ID cards and all along we are making our case. I no instance so far you have made a rationale argument. You simply argue that either we have something to hide, or we don't care about the 'b$*&*(ds', or we are letting 'murderes' and rapists' get away with it, or we need to control illegal migrants! These are slogans, they are not arguments.

Mr 'Steve ID is Good' can you please articulate clearly why ID cards are good?

N.

This does very little to enhance the strength of your argument, Steve.

I haven't insulted you, I don't expect you to insult me.

No, I haven't benefitted from 'rich parents' either. Far from it. Whether I'm a 'tosser' or not is my business. (Unless Big Brother really is watching) [/i]

Really? And what, exactly have you contributed to any discussion? Insults and assertions do not a discussion make.

As I said elsewhere, ad hominems and silly assertions. No facts, no evidence, no arguments.

The person who resorts to this behaviour demonstrates that they have lost the argument.

May I ask "Steve ID is Good" to try and possibly answer some questions to ease my mind on the subject of ID cards:

1) Can you make a convincing case for the proposed establishment of a national database linked to the issue of an ID card?

2) What discernible benefits will arise from the establishment of such a database?

3) If you think the system will NOT reduce personal privacy or threaten civil liberties, why?

4) What problems do you think the establishment of a national database will solve?

5) How do you really feel about the proposed establishment of a regime that will entail everyone in compulsory and recurring charges, allied to the threat of punitive fines in an attempt to coerce compliance?

Thank you.

Maybe this is something we could all do, for good or bad.

I wonder of the admin would create a board for members to argue their case for and against the cards, with the reasons, any links, stats figures etc. Argue it as "This is my case for/against ID cards and it is based on..."

I only say this and I agree with others that once it descends into name calling, the arguements lost in any case but we are by nature a partially reactive group simply because we are waiting on the governments whim.

By using this forum, NO2ID could gather a lot of information, elicit public and common thinking, examine the public given arguements For the cards etc and extrapolate a fairly well balanced and well argued report made from this sites contributions.

Also, what about a public questionaire when we give out leaflets, lets get some reactions off the street, a simple set questionaire filled out after reading a leaflet and see what Joe Public really has to say on this matter, I reckon a thousand responses across the UK in various cross sections would make things look a whole lot different.

This would have merit in that the report would be made up from what people think, mixed in with a good background of facts and the common myths that joe public believe in and the way we could dispel them.

This would also give us a good working manifesto so to speak that is unified, well thought out and addresses all of the issues at the same time.

Some of the evidence I gave to the CAC on Family justice were simply statements from concerned members on why they thought it was a good or a bad thing.

Hi,

My name is Stu - I'm new. I couldn't resist entering the fray.

Just so you know my position - I regard ID cards as a gross intrusion into our privacy and a threat to our basic freedom.

"I said lets deal with our own criminals before inviting in more."

I have served 27 years at the sharp end as a police officer - and I still come into contact with criminals in my present role - both imported and home-grown. Yet I remain to be convinced that ID cards will have any efficacy in preventing criminality, identifying offenders or securing convictions.

"Are you all rebellious poilt children with rich parents??"

I can't speak for the others here but my Dad worked in the coal industry as an engineering instructor and my mum's family were travellers. I left school at 15 and worked as a storekeeper at a joinery. "Rebellious poilt [sic] children with rich parents?" - hardly in my case!

Oct

Mr 'ID card is good' lost the argument a long time ago. He used meaningless slogans and no real arguments to articulate a good reasoned position for ID cards. Perhaps because there aren't any.

In many ways he represents that middle class of normality that buys anything in an uncritical fashion from the government. While the rest of us tried to engage him with arguments, all we got back was meaningless. He just wants the cards because of some vague promise that they will keep 'bastards' out, but how this will happen God only knows.

What this has taught me is that rational arguments only agrevate the ignorant for they expose them for what they are. It takes courage for somebody to admit they have no good argument and let go of the politics of fear which this government plays upon.

N

Steady there..its not all bad...I have a feeling "Steve is good" knows what we say is true and solid as its based on logic and fact...why else would he resort to the subintellectual level of the use of monosylabics...This forum is excellent as it gets views bouncing around which can only be positive....Unfortunately anyone who questions government thinking is automatically branded leftist which in itself is a form of racism for all I ask is to question....if a subject is solid then it will stand up to question and if not then it will crumble as does this id scham...
..interesting read regarding the governments propoganda use of the ol BBC...
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0303/S00277.htm

....metaphorically speaking you may liken the government to a dodgy insurance sales man with hidden self motivated agenda trying to sell a brand spanking new all in one miracle, problem solving, life cover....steve wants to blindly hand over the cash and sign on the dotted line...us pickie "lefties" want to read the small print....

I’ve been talking (not “boarding”, real face-to-face stuff) to a lot of people lately about ID cards and my concerns.

The initial response is almost always “nothing to hide, nothing to fear” and I go through the arguments … database linkage, accuracy, accountability, right to privacy, the “full life audit trail” beloved of the wretched Blunkett.

They hear all this, understand it, and usually agree. But then comes the very British laissez-faire thing. “If ‘they’ really want to keep tabs on me in this way, if it’s important to monitor everything I do, more fool them! It really doesn’t matter to me.”

And in response to the challenge often expressed on this board, “if you’ve nothing to hide, let’s have your full name, address, DOB, etc. etc.” their response is “sure … why not?” It’s also probably true to say that for 99% plus middle aged, middle class Britons living outside major urban areas, the daily impact of ID cards should they be introduced will (other than the fee) be absolutely zero.

So, I’m finding it difficult to come up with a sufficiently powerful argument to move these representatives of, what I suspect is a large proportion of the population, off the fence and into a position of (if not actively campaigning against ID cards) at least not passively endorsing them.

I’m beginning to think that one possible line of attack is that used on an ITV 4 programme recently, which illustrated how Capita (the mal-administrators of London’s congestion charging) pursued perfectly innocent people for unpaid charges for a car that they had sold years earlier, or on occasions had never owned.

This to me seems to an interesting area to explore. The fact that one has “nothing to hide” does not mean that “they” think that one is innocent.

Anyone got any (publishable) true stories around this theme? Or other thoughts?

..just thought I'de hammer that nail into the already heavily nailed coffin...

columbarius...thats a very valid point...unfortunately the UK has had an easy life for a long time and the memories of the last war and threat to civil liberties are now faded...the facts are in black and white....people are unfortunately apathetic as a result of a life of ease.....

one further note these proponants of the id scham only have one predictable reply well.."if you have nothing to hide"...this comment is like saying "same difference"..its completely irrelevant where or not you have something to hide..its about LOSING YOUR CIVIL LIBERTIES...no government ever has the right to take those basic rights away....what has losing civil liberties got to do with "something to hide".....?

StuntDude, we might feel like that. At my age I qualify as an embittered cynical "grumpy old man". I don't suffer fools gladly, and I have have never been accused of deferring to figures in authority. But that's a minority position.

The British, by and large, are a very passive, law-abiding, "mind my own business" population, slow to anger, and unused to protest. More importantly, because as a nation we have never (in recent times at least) lost our freedoms, as a population we find it hard to contemplate what life would be like without them, or to appreciate the steady erosion over recent years.

It's probably not fair to call it apathy (although as an aside I was amused to listen to St Tony's apparatchiks extorting "labour voters" to turn out and vote, lest the Tories win by default, for 12 hours every 4 years the elector matters) it's a native reluctance to "rock the boat", to challenge authority, or to dissent.

On the other hand, if the British are roused, they're a formidable force.

So, in the absence of a Churchill, what's the hot button?

Not easy...spread your knowledge...get people wise to the bbc propoganda machine.....I had to post this link...choice read.. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 31,00.html

I have access to the database of one of the three main credit checking agencies through my line of work.

When I checked my address, the names of the previous owners came up despite having moved out 11 years ago.

Also, my neighbour is listed as living with my parents under their surname.

Confident?

I was walking up to people asking if I could fingerprint them. They all said no. Think I'll wear a Blair mask next time.

The other argument I kept running into was "The government already has all this information." I found it harder to counter that one in a nice soundbite and was thinking of printing up a leaflet just to illustrate the difference.