NO2ID

I think that we need to really think on how the two dictators used databases and ID schemes to wipe out as many as forty million people by simply collating a few files together and sending either the SS or Beria's secret police to clear them up.

The "enemy" today is the muslim, how long will it take the government to think up plans to "deal" with these people simply because the US has a major personality disorder in the middle east.

We have to remember the potentials that exist built on historical abuses.

I suspect there is a major security service drive behind this, either MI5/6 or the CIA/Homeland, they have whipped up the companies and given a few key govt people some major bungs and off they go.

I think that Muslim groups as well as other ethnic minorities should be up in arms over this as although they may not be the "primary" target, they certainly are on the agenda.

Have you read this?

http://www.bowgroup.org/pub/IDCards.pdf

And of course there are all the questions we never got answers:

1. How much will this scheme cost and what are the estimated running costs per year?

2. Why - if nobody has anything to hide, including the government - there was such limited debate in the parliament?

3. Why does the government say there was consultation, when in reality different questions were asked and answeres were stretched to fit the purpose?

4. How exactly will ID cards combat terrorism? Will they prevent terrorist attacks?


and... and... and... Instead, we hear all kinds of spin and rubbish, but Mr 'grow up' still thinks they are a great idea! Why are they a great idea?

The politics of hope versus the politics of fear...

The thin edge of the wedge mate, that is what they are. And yes, I want to hide things, and it is my right to hide them. I will never surrender the principle that my privacy is my privacy.

How times change:

"And instead of wasting hundreds of millions of pounds on compulsory ID cards as the Tory Right demand, let that money provide thousands of extra police officers on the beat in our local communities."

Tony Blair - Speech to the Labour Congress on 3 October, 1995

I am not interested to convince you Mr 'grow up'. As long as I don't have to have an ID card, as much as I am concerned you can have ten of them.

N.

Cheers buddy...I'me South African by birth...I had the luck or lack of it of growing up under the heady restrictions of Apartheid when Mr De Klerk and his crew were running the shop. They had ID cards and those racists believed fully in them as your man old Tony does..., I unlike your good self can speak from experience....THEY DONT WORK...they dont stop fraud, id theft or terrorism..the only thing they do do..is give the police the legal opportunity to target sections of society...(I hope you saw that documentary on racism in the UK police force..its alive and well in your country).......in fact they make fraud and id theft easier...I came from a police state to a country that respected civil liberties , but now with morons like yourself repeating that brain dead argument of "if you dont have anything to hide" scmeal..... we are on the brink of taking the UK into a police state. So Steve..before you go blowing off about something you know absolutely zero about....try something new and think first.

My complaint is not just about the card and the database, It is the fact that I don't want my info put on these databases.

If as an individual you want the goverment, the security services, goverment departments and anyone else the goverment wants to let see your info (including those overseas), track you and know everything about you, then that is up to you. I am a big fan of choice. Simply because you want to let them do this, does not mean I should have my health put at risk because I don't. It does not mean that I should be forced into poverty because I don't. It does not mean I should be sent to prison (thats where I'll end up before I let the state spy on me! They will be able to spy on me in prison, but it will be those who buy one that will be paying for my accomodation) because I don't.

Then there is the the Electronic Patient Record. If you want your info available to 380,000 nurses, and 100,000 doctors then that is up to you. If you want to run the risk of that info is leaked or missused, then that is up to you. If you want to run the risk of your doctor getting access to even more medical information to create reports for a future employer (I seen a doc about something they told me I would not never be forced to tell an employer, and now they have changed their mind. Not on medical or safety grounds, but simply because I told them about it).

If you are happy with all that, then get a card and let them put your info on the EPR, let them put your information on the database, let them use it any way they want, but simply because you want it, does not mean I must be forced to let them!

And then again there is the childrens act (if you have children you should be very worried about this!). This was criticized by the Parliament’s Joint Committee on Human Rights, and if it worries them, it should worry you.

Between these 3 databases there will be very little, if any, part of your life that a 3rd party (i.e. goverment departments or the police) can't find out about.

The questions are, do you realy want them to be able to invade your privacy? Do you have the right to force others to have their privacy invaded?

Interesting that "stressfree" raised the issue of NHS e-records. I live in an NHS area which is "piloting" their introduction.

Two weeks ago I received a leaflet telling me that my GP, hospital, and community health staff records would be combined - unless I told them not to. (Note: in commercial circles that would be called inertia selling, which has been illegal for many years)

Anyway I phoned the number given, and refused permission for them to combine my records. I then asked about their plans to include the NIRN in their combined database. I felt the blushes on the 'phone, will need to speak to a supervisor, I'll get them to call you back.

Of course they didn't call back. So I put in a couple of reminder calls, and eventually got a voicemail to say that they had no plans to incorporate the NIRD in the database at present (where's that advertisment with politicians & flying pigs?).

Equally interesting in the Nursing Times 15-21/2/05 (OK so I read widely) there is an article on the e-records system. One of the key "cons" is the ethical dilemma about revealing patient information to 3rd parties, like the police! Another is the fact that some staff will only have limited access, so in practice those with full access will open the system to everyone else because they don't have time to act as the control point.

Thus patient confidentiality is dead in the water, even before the ship is launched!

Yes, they are doing it in all directions...

The spy in the GP's surgery:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 76,00.html



And yes, ID cards should be a matter of choice. There should be informed debate, extensive debate and consultation, but in the end it should be a matter of choice.

However, the whole system hinges on compulsion. Check the fines:

- refusal to obey an order to register = £2500
- failure to submit to fingerprinting and biometric scanning = £2500
- failure to provide information demanded by the government = £2500
- failure to attend an interview at a specified place and time = £2500
- failure to notify authorities about a lost, stolen, damaged or defective card = up to 51 weeks in prison and/or a fine
- failure to renew an ID card = £1000
- failure to attend subsequent fingerprinting and biometric scanning when demanded = £1000
- failure to provide subsequent information when demanded = £1000
- failure to attend subsequent interview at specified place and time when demanded = £1000
- failure to notify authorities of any change in personal circumstances (including change of address) = £1000
- providing false information = up to 2 years and/or a fine

I call this Fascism, Totalitarianism, Dictatorship. We are obligated to speak out.

N.

All valid points..I thought it was also worth mentioning, that there seems to be this unspoken assumption that because this ID con involves biometric scanning , database handling all cutting edge technology concepts , wrapped in a coating of IT...then its going to be the all singing and dancing cure for all of the UK'S woes. But no matter how fantastic the system may look technically in theory (and it doesnt, biometric scanning is not a flawless concept and neither is database handling, especially on the scale being envisaged) ,in practice there is always the human element , if a system was designed by a human then there will be another human who will be able to crack it. Having such a vaste amount of sensitive data on a centralised database is just asking for trouble.

goeie more suntdude1....
wat soek jy in n plek soos hierdie???
suid sfrika is nou glad nie beter af, as in die ou apartheid era. die ou id karte was net id karte..met geen tekens van biometrics of vinger afdrukke.

Johan

There were all sorts of crazy schemes running in SA prior to the ANC taking control, I wonder how many of these were "testbeds" for other concerns.

Especially when BOSS keeps appearing in certain documents I have read, people when they list the CIA, MFI and the KGB wholly forget the SA security service which was extremely powerful and extremely harsh in its application.

It still all comes down to a form of branding, doesn't it?

Whether you carry the remote brand in your wallet or you have it burnt or tattoed on your arm like other things have shown, we are being marked and ultimately if we are not careful we could end up possessions and automatons with the ultimate jingo "work or starve to death"

Whichever the way you look at it as wel, in any of the countries under "attack" you will see its a few pulling the strings...

Goeie more Johan..hoop alles is goed..ja ek weet die ou karte in Suid Afrika het geen tekens van biometrics of vinger afdrukke maar hulle was gebruik om die niet blankes lewens moeilik te maak..Verskoon my Affrikaans as ek moet my taal meer gebruik , maar in Engeland allemal gebruik net Engels en ek vergeet so veel worde..Hoekom denk jy dat Suid Afrika nou niet beter af is..woon jy in Suid Afika of Engeland

I am a British Citizen that has lived in Hong Kong for the last 10 Years. There has always been a compulsory ID Card System which has proven to be very successful.

one of its main functions is to prevent illegal immigrants from living and working in Hong Kong. This in turn has in my opinion made Hong Kong one of the safest and most enjoyable places to live.

It has also made travelling in and out of Hong Kong much quicker and convenient, as you can also use it as you passport.

I am in full agreement with the comments that anyone who is against ID Cards may have something to hide.

People who support ID cards also have plenty of things to hide. The simple test is: are you willing to publish your full name, address, phone number etc. here on a public internet forum ?

Under the UK ID card scheme, many thousands of petty officials and bureaucrats in several countries will have access to these and many other much more personal details i.e. far more people than there are readers of this discussion forum.

To imply that all of us who oppose thie UK Government's Identity Card plans may have something illegal to hide is libellous.

I echo the sentiments of wtwu .."steve" and "guest" simply show that they do not have the power of thought/reason and only have the ability to repeat parrot style Tony's propaganda... to quote "No society can survive and thrive when absolute power is given to the governing body. As the saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Understanding this premise leads us to the realization that civil liberties are the most precious and frail of rights and must be protected at all costs. Our legacy of civil liberties in this country have been paid for by the blood of our fathers, grand fathers, and great great great great grand fathers. To throw these rights away for the misguided illusion of greater security would be a most serious crime indeed."

How naive! Because somebody had no problems in Hong Long with ID cards, was never stopped by the police, was able to travel in and out, etc, etc, the conclusion is that ID cards are a great thing!

Now can we please speak with those that were harassed by the police state, those who have no voice, those whose liberties were restricted, those whose privacy was compromised, etc, etc. Are you telling me there are none? Or are they all illegal migrants? Perhaps they all have something to hide? I wonder what! And are there no illegal migrants in Hong Kong?

Nicos

Eight years of that ten years has been under Chinese rule....

The Chinese Govt were promised by Patton the introduction of an ID scheme before revertion of rule in 1997 and that is why the colony suddenly went through a mass registration process.

This was when the UK/Chinese Govts in the last five years of British rule were working together in handing over the state to China, you may find it was a Chinese intitiative in the first place as the communist state databases everybody from birth.

I won't go in to the whys and wherefores too much but projects like mass databases in China were created not so much to spy on the populace but in classic "mandarism" where employment projects where created by the ruling party to force full employment on the masses.

The second consideration is also the National Birth and Family watchdog in China which monitors familys to ensure that one child is born per family, I have seen the reports of what the Chinese use Formaldehyde injections at birth for in regards to second children, its one of the lesser known things on the mainlaind regime and is known as "crowning execution" and is a diabolical procedure endorsed and enforced by the chinese government.

The third consideration of the prehand over database was so that the British Governemt could identify the cream of the crop in HK's provincial makeup, to prevent millions walking into Britain as genuine UK citizens, the government created a pre approved list of Doctor's, lawyers and other professionals that were offered UK citizenship if wanted plus incentives, the British government didn't want anyone else except these professionals and if you look at the UK immigration programme in place now, any asylum seekers that have a professional qualification are virtually guaranteed acceptance and fast tracked, leaving the humble worker to fare in the camps only to be returned.

I spent six months living in Artillery St HK so know the city well enough, I think the British government treated the HK citizens appallingly in the last year or so but I am just one person....

Eight years of that ten years has been under Chinese rule....

The Chinese Govt were promised by Patton the introduction of an ID scheme before revertion of rule in 1997 and that is why the colony suddenly went through a mass registration process

Sorry to Rain on you Parade Ancientone, but the Hong Kong Identity Cards were introduced more than 30 years ago under the British because of the large number of illegal immigrants from China and not a few years before the handover as you maintain.

With Regards to a mass database in China of all babies born I believe that that is the same in all countries and called a “birth Certificate” and as such is irrelevant. Yes there has been a one child policy in China, however only implemented in certain overpopulated regions and not nationwide as you state. I certainly do not condone the way that it has been enforced but again it is irrelevant to ID Cards as Children in China do not have to carry one until they are 12.

In your final statement you stated that the prehandover database was created so that the cream of the crop could become citizens of the UK. Firstly obviously as I previously stated the ID Card system was enforced over 30 years ago before there was any thinking ever giving it back to the Chinese.

But to address your point, special consideration was given to high ranking civil servants who felt that their lives maybe in danger after the Chinese regained control of Hong Kong, although I am sure that this was abused somewhat to include other people in the territory. Everyone else was allowed to apply for a British Overseas National (BNO) Passport which gave them access (although somewhat restricted) to live and work in the UK.

Obviously it would have been nice for the Hong Kong Chinese to have all been given a full British Passport, however I sure that if that had happened and things had gone wrong in Hong Kong you would not have been exactly overjoyed at the prospect of 6 million new neighbours.[/i][/quote]

I was only rising to the challange to name a country where ID cards have both been successful and used for the purpose that they were originally intended.

Bye the Bye I don't see that the UK is or ever will be a police state and as far as I am aware the people there are not harassed or have any infringements on their civil liberties, as such irrelevant to the discussion as to whether ID cards should be introduced to the UK. If however you were living in such a place you would have my full support.

Yes there are still illegal immigrants in Hong Kong, hence the need for ID Cards, however with no ID Card system it would be 1000 times worse.

As far as the privacy being compromised, if you honestly believe that the authorities, such as the inland revenue, don't already have this information then I think that you are the one that is Naive

Your point is noted, firstly I had no intention of being libellous, merely pointing out the fact that it is going to be far more unpopular with the shadier member of society and in no way am I suggesting that the readers of this forum fit that category.

But to answer your point, I have very rarely had my ID checked in Hong Kong, because firstly I do not indulge in crime and obviously I don't look like a Chinese or Vietnamese illegal immigrant (which as I stated before was the main reason for introducing the system).

Police State Definition: [n] a country that maintains repressive control over the people by means of police (especially secret police)

Trust me when I sat that the above definition bares as much resemblance Hong Kong as Camilla Parker Bowles has to being a sex goddess.

The people in Hong Kong are not repressed in any way, there is no secret police, the majority of the police head staff are still British and all the names and telephone numbers of the civil servants in Hong Kong (including the police) are available on the internet.

To be truthful I would in fact say that the police in Hong Kong are far more laid back than the UK. Trust me if Hong Kong was a police state I would not be living here.

You also raised a good point that that the UK ID Card will not have to be carried at all times. This I cannot argue with. Without the law that everyone must carry an ID it makes it ineffective. Personally I think everyone should carry it just as they have to in Hong Kong and the USA.

In another of your points that "petty officials" will have access to your information, as I have already mentioned before "they have already"

Trust me when I say that I have been Carrying an ID Card for over 10 years well before Tony even came into power. So I would not class myself as a parrot talker or a person who gets court up in the propaganda machine.

To take you somewhat misguided point, yes absolute power corrupts aboslutely but what has that got to do with an ID Card System?

Are you suggesting that the moment you recieve an ID Card you will immediatly have all you wealth and civil liberties taken away?

Please explain because obviously not being able to reason as you state I am not quite sure where you are going with this.

Do you honestly believe that this is all just one major conspiricy to destory and humble the masses?

Or is this all just Paranoia?

I notice that the chinese resident tries to score a meagre point yet maybe doesn't know HK that well to understand the implication behind the statement of "living" in Artillery St...

I also note that in a further post much praise seems to come from denying the police state....

Yet I saw the boat people relocation camps, the British Govt did before and the Chinese Govt since repatriated these immigrants and asylum seekers to the most atrocious retributions back in their home countries, that is why many of them rioted on may occasions through the conditions and the thought that their country would punish them upon their return.

Ah, the Chinese illegal immigrants...

Yes I remember going up to one of the border checkpoints, with the British and the Chinese army watching each other through field glasses, ready for action, both seeming oblivious to the caravan trail of people blithely walking through the border areas, it made the US/Mexican border pale in comparison.

As for the "ID" card, it had more in common with the WWII counterpart of the UK than what is being proposed on the table here and now, in fact the card was considered no ID property at all due to the huge black market that exists in Hong Kong and the free availability of working ready to go ID's available under the counter.

I wouldn't presume to lecture a HK national on what is what BUT I would also not endure any lecture simply because I was aware of other things going on in the background that the average HK resident would NOT know about. I am aware of "issues" that maybe were not "common" knowledge on the streets and many people were amazed that the colony was actually handed over in the end as there was a movement to give "independance" rather than a change of ownership.

And as for scared civil servants being the only ones sought out by HM Govt to take home with them....

That again was the official stance, when a well qualified professional comes through the borders in the UK, the govt doesn't openly "admit" they want this or that person because of their high qualification and they wouldn't admit it then either but there was a quiet influx of medical and other professionals that came into the UK on arranged citizenships, apparently "scared for their lives" but more likely given large paychecks and incentives to help quell their "terror", how naive to think that HK would be exempt from what has become a national policy in regards to letting in these sort of people.

But what we in the UK are fighting now is what the Chinese live with everyday in the mainland, a large political and invasive database on every person in China with a despotic secret police network and draconian state framework, it was always kept to a minimum in Hong Kong lest they go the way of Taiwan but the stark contrast of conditions in the main country and the former colony is even now too hard to ignore.

That is not actually the case.

The various failed attempts at "Joined Up Electronic Government" schemes prove that even though, say the Inland Revenue and the Department for Work and Pensions both hold, for example, some of your name and address details, that does not mean thet "they" know all about you already. Many of their computer systems are incompatible, due to fragmented design and development over the years, and do not directly communicate with each other,

The ID card scheme would demand at least "50 registerable facts" from you, including , for example, should you return to settle in the UK from Hong Kong, all your current and previous addresses, in the UK and overseas. You will also face a £1000 fine if any of the pettyfogging details are innaccurate.

I doubt if many UK bureaucrats have this information available to them at the moment, and it will be shared through "statutory gateways" and the Third Pillar of the European Union with bureacrats in all 25 European Union countries, and with other G8 countries e.g. the USA and Russia.

What I am sugggesting is that the moment compulsory ID cards are impossed on all of us, there is the potential (yes, the potential, and often the will also) to use the system as a general policing scheme on the whole population.

If you have any doubts on this please check: South Africa, Germany, Greece etc. Yes, the potential of abuse is there. It may not happen automatically, but it does allow certain politicians with authoritarian tendencies to use the system against their own population. Is this a risk I want to take? No. Consider we were lied about the reasons for going to war in Iraq.

I would feel less paranoia if the government had a proper debate - they never did. I would feel less parannoia if they did not try to rush it through the parliament. I would feel lessd paranoia if the government was not playing on the politics of fear to impose this.

Yes, the moment ID cards are in place anyone of us can potentially have their civil liberties compromised.

And by the way, since ID cards have not controlled illegal migrants in Hong Kong (as you admit), there goes one more argument for them.

Nicos

with regards to throwing the 'b@$%^rds out!' i'm interested to know which 'bastards' your refering to? the assylum seekers who are fleeing violence, rape, torture and death, in order to start a new and apparently safer life in the uk? the people who you are assuming are here illegaly, just by the colour of their skin or their accent? anyone who is different to yourself? please...do tell. it seems to me that, rather than worry about the 'terror' threat, which is almost non exsistent in this country, we should be concerned about those who face real terror daily, and concentrate on providing a safe, welcoming enviroment, and eradicating rascist 'b@$%^rds like yourself. [/quote]

with regards to throwing the 'b@$%^rds out!' i'm interested to know which 'bastards' your refering to? the assylum seekers who are fleeing violence, rape, torture and death, in order to start a new and apparently safer life in the uk? the people who you are assuming are here illegaly, just by the colour of their skin or their accent? anyone who is different to yourself? please...do tell. it seems to me that, rather than worry about the 'terror' threat, which is almost non exsistent in this country, we should be concerned about those who face real terror daily, and concentrate on providing a safe, welcoming enviroment, and eradicating rascist 'b@$%^rds like yourself.