NO2ID

I filed a number of questions with my local council as I have yet to be shown ANY BENEFITS that a biometric system provides to MY children. Flintshire council's original letter to parents states that they intend to implement a biometric cashless catering system in ALL SCHOOLS in Flintshire. (note the discrepancy with the FOI answers below)

Below are the questions I asked - and the answers...

(it is very worrying indeed that Flintshire County Council have earmarked well over £300,000 of taxpayers money based purely on 'commonly perceived benefits' - I have filed more questions... and complaints...
Also note the total lack of discussions/ meetings held about this with other democratically elected councillors... and the huge rise in the budget for the 'Catering Services Department' if only this money was being spent on better quality food...)


Dear Mrs McKeand,

Further to your enquiry made under the Freedom of Information Act, please find my response.




1. I wish to be provided with ALL cost / benefit analysis that have been completed concerning anything whatsoever to do with implementing these cashless systems in Flintshire schools. Not just for Mold Alun but for all schools in Flintshire as stated in the quote from the first letter from Alun School, above. This includes all equipment, maintenance and IT services.

A1. The Council holds no information regarding a cost/benefit analysis. The commonly perceived benefits however, are that:

Pupils in receipt of free meals are not identifiable, thus encouraging them to take up their entitlement to free meals. Other Authorities with cashless systems have reported a marked increase in the take up of free meals.

Pupils do not need cash to purchase meals thus reducing the opportunity for theft and cases of bullying

Due to the reduction in the length of the school day and consequently the shorter lunchtime service, cashless systems can speed up service enabling pupils to eat before their afternoon registration

Parents can monitor what their children are eating through reports available from the systems. This gives back some control to parents over what their children eat

Parents can ask the system to block certain foods they do not wish their children to eat

The cashless system in Elfed has shown a marked increase in the uptake of meals – more pupils are taking a hot meal at lunchtime – this falls into line with the Appetite for Life recommendations that more children should have a meal at lunchtime


Parents are able to top-up their child’s account by cheque thus preventing pupils from spending their dinner money on the way to school. There is also a facility to allow for payment via the internet which can be adopted by schools in the future.

2. I wish to know who carried out these cost/ benefit analysis and what conclusions they reached, I will need to see the information that this decision was based upon.

A2. As the Council holds no information regarding a cost/benefit analysis, this question cannot be answered.


3. What is the FULL, TOTAL AND FINAL cost of this system in Alun School?

A3.The full cost of the system in the Alun School is as follows: -

PCS Systems £20,905.00
Software £ 1,062.32
Installation £ 1,162.50
Server £ 283.14
Printer etc. £ 574.00
Writing/Electrics £ 1,162.50

TOTAL £25,149.46



4. What is the FULL, TOTAL AND FINAL COST of rolling this system out across Flintshire schools?

A4. The Council does not have this information. The full, total and final cost of rolling this system out across Flintshire Schools is not known as a full roll out is not yet timetabled or costed.


5. What will be the annual running costs of these systems for the Alun School?

A5.The annual running costs of these systems for the Alun School are £1,967.40

6. What will be the TOTAL annual running costs of these systems for ALL SCHOOLS in Flintshire once this system has been implemented in all Flintshire schools?

A6. The Council does not have this information. The total annual running cost for all schools is unknown and unquantified given that the system operates in two Secondary Schools only.


7. I require the minutes of ALL council meetings concerning the spending of the Education Catering Service budget in relation to these cashless systems.

A7. This is exempt information under the Act because the minutes of County Council meetings are already in the public domain. However, there is no separate reference to this subject in any of the Council’s Minutes or budget reports as this has not been before a Council Meeting; this was an operational development.


8. I wish to know what the budget for Education Catering Service Department was for 2005, 2006 & 2007.

A8.The budget for 2004/05 - £246,890
2005/06 - £258,065
2006/07 - £287,814



9. What is the budget for this department for 2008?
A9. The budget for this Unit in 2007/08 is £393,778

10. What is the projected budget for this department for 2009 & 2010?
A10.The projected budget for this Unit in 2008/09 and 2009/10 is as follows: -
2008/09 - £403,090 (based on current year prices)
2009/10 - £403,090 (based on current year prices)


11. Where does this budget come from? Who decided the budget for the department?
A11. The full County Council sets the Budget each year at the Budget Meeting. However, I do not believe the minutes of the annual Budget Meetings contain any information beyond that supplied in (8) and (9) above.


12. Finally, as you ordered these systems from a private independent company, I wish to know the full name and address of this private organisation and who at this company has been dealing with the council. I also require copies of all orders made to this organisation, and I require copies of all purchase orders, including order numbers generated by Flintshire Council and any department or person employed by Flintshire County Council relating to the purchase and maintenance of the cashless catering systems. Photocopies/ faxes are acceptable at this point.

A12.This is exempt information under the Act but I can advise you of the name of the company together with contact names:

PCS Cashless Payment Systems
Units 1 and 4
The Business Centre
Fence Avenue
Macclesfield
Cheshire
SK10 1LW

The contact names are Mr Kevin Foley and Mr Danny Cookson.

I can confirm that the expenditure is as listed under my answers at (3) and (5).



I hope I have responded to your enquiry to your satisfaction. If you believe I have not dealt with your request properly the enclosed complaints procedure provides a way for your request to be reconsidered by a Senior Officer not previously involved in processing your request.

oh i don't know how to log onto this but this thread was started by me Sophie McKeand

You should certainly pursue the absence of any cost/benefit justification, business case, etc.

Searching the flintshire.gov.uk site is an education - in just how little there is available, and so dated. Can it be that the full council has not met since September 2007? http://www.flintshire.gov.uk/WebCont/te ... 27_09_2007

Or the Audit Committee since March 2007?

I would raise with the Overview and Scrutiny Committee:

The Head of Overview & Scrutiny
Flintshire County Council
FREEPOST
NWW 15332
Mold CH7 6ZY

Or by e-mail to scrutiny@flintshire.gov.uk or by fax to 01352 702494

Wow! So the cost of implementing the system at 1 school was 9% of the 2006/7 annual ECSD budget. I am not sure how many schools there are in total but a quick squint at the website suggests it's of the order of 100 which means £200K in annual running costs if all the schools were like the one cited i.e. almost 50% of the annual budget!

Sophie McKeand, Nice to read that there are parents out there who oppose the indignity of school biometrics. If only more people would wake up.

Did I read somewhere that in the case of your child's school an alternative to biometrics is being offered in the form of a pin number? At least that is something, many schools appear to introduce biometrics by compulsion, ie Morley.

Hi Folland,

yes there is a PIN number option which I have chosen for my children. The problem that I have is that we were TOLD that the system was being introduced and did we want biometric or PIN for our child (we were given 3 days to reply), we did not have the option to actually have the system or not. This is not acceptable to me.

One of the things that worries me the most is that we are supposed to live in a 'democracy' but at the moment, unless you have children who are directly affected by these systems then you have NO SAY about this issue.. what about people who do not have children yet, or those whose children don't have children yet? Don't we all have the right to decide how the future will be for those generations of UK citizens?

They are using a 'divide and conquer' method because if there really was national debate about this then these systems would never see the light of day...

I truly believe that if parents were fully aware of the dangers and the possibilities of mis-using biometrics, if parents were fully educated about this, then these systems would not enter our schools. People need educating, but if a SCHOOL isn't going to do that, then who is?

Hi Folland,

yes there is a PIN number option which I have chosen for my children. The problem that I have is that we were TOLD that the system was being introduced and did we want biometric or PIN for our child (we were given 3 days to reply), we did not have the option to actually have the system or not. This is not acceptable to me.

One of the things that worries me the most is that we are supposed to live in a 'democracy' but at the moment, unless you have children who are directly affected by these systems then you have NO SAY about this issue.. what about people who do not have children yet, or those whose children don't have children yet? Don't we all have the right to decide how the future will be for those generations of UK citizens?

They are using a 'divide and conquer' method because if there really was national debate about this then these systems would never see the light of day...

I truly believe that if parents were fully aware of the dangers and the possibilities of mis-using biometrics, if parents were fully educated about this, then these systems would not enter our schools. People need educating, but if a SCHOOL isn't going to do that, then who is?

The indecent haste with which schools all over the country introduce biometric systems is very creepy indeed. Even more creepy is the "Stasi" reaction to parents and pupils who oppose such things.

Let me give an example. I may have already mentioned this before somewhere on the NO2ID Forum. A friend of mine did not agree with the use of biometrics at his children's primary school in Southampton. Accordingly, he forbade the school from scanning their prints. Suddenly, his children were barred from school trips to museums and galleries. Then his eldest child was barred from an overnight trip to an activity centre. Not wishing his children to be disappointed any further my friend gave in , the children were too young to understand. I would have urged him to keep up the fight but he had many other more pressing concerns. ie redundancy.

Take a look at Leave http://www.leavethemkidsalone.com/ and http://morleyparents.blogspot.com/

The use of very expensive biometric systems to pay for food and to borrow books is completely out of proportion. Her Majesty's Prisons do not go this far.

Our child was bullied out of the nursery attached to a primary school because we objected to fingerprinting - the head has lied about when and how the system was introduced including age group

schools are now run by yes men who really coulnt give a dam about children or their parents

Get the local press involved.

Clearly that has been done:

Evening Leader: Call for full debate on school dinners ID move

A MOTHER has called for a full debate on a school dinners system where children's fingerprints are scanned.

The Evening Leader reported recently on Sophie McKeand's outrage after finding out children's fingers are being scanned at the till when buying their school meals.

Miss McKeand is campaigning to get the system removed from schools and has set up a parents' action group.

......................

A Flintshire Council spokesman previously said the introduction of the system into the Alun School follows extensive consultation with the governing body, a focus group of parents, the school council, the sixth form council and the PTA.

In a response under the FOI request from Miss McKeand, she was told there is no reference to this subject in any of the council's minutes as it has not been before a council meeting. It is described by the council as "an operational development".

The spokesman from the council added: "This has been an open and transparent process fully involving pupils and parents, and in recognition of legitimate concerns by parents, a dual system will be in place."

http://www.eveningleader.co.uk/news/Cal ... 3874309.jp

At least, in North Wales

All the benefits they list apply to "cashless" but are irrelevant to "biometric"; i.e. PIN and/or swipecard would do just as well.