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 Post subject: Clarification on passport renewal
PostPosted: Wed, 03 May 2006 08:02:53 +0000 
Hi,

A friend forwarded me information about the http://www.renewforfreedom.org/ campaign, and I wanted to participate.

However, I am currently working in Perth (Australia), so I headed over the the British Consul in Australia site, and to my dismay applications for standard passports ended on the 21st April 2006 and I would now have to apply for a biometric passport at the increased cost of 91 UK pounds (sorry US-style keyboards don't seem to have pound symbols, grrr). This is detailed at http://bhc.britaus.net/Passports/passportsdefault.asp.

This isn't too bad as it would as far as I can tell allow me to avoid being registered with the NIR for the life of the passport, which is the whole point of the exercise (although I don't necessarily agree with biometric passports either).

Anyway, on the flyer http://www.renewforfreedom.org/NO2ID_Factsheet1.pdf it indicates that the NO2ID gained clarification from the Home Office and that you can read about it on the new UKIPS website (http://www.identitycards.gov.uk/), but this only links to the passports web-site and the identity card web-site, and I can't find this information on either.

Could someone point me to exactly where the clarification from the home office is so I can use this information to support my application (I suspect I may have a whole load of hassle renewing it because of the business visa that is in my current passport, but hopefully it shouldn't be too hard).

Thanks in advance

neil


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PostPosted: Wed, 03 May 2006 09:10:52 +0000 
I applied for renewals for my small family before the April 21 deadline(and saved nearly $200 as a result!)

They don't require an interview, and at this stage the biometric info on the British passports issued in Australia is limited to an encoded version of your photo. I would just apply now before they make it any harder. However - and I think you'll like this - they've carefully worded their statement as:

" An adult 32-page biometric passport will cost $223 (£91) and a child's passport will cost $145 (£59). If you are a frequent traveller who holds a 48-page ("jumbo") passport, we will not, for the moment, be able to issue biometric versions. "

I interpret this as they may have a stock of non-biometric jumbo passports. They were inbetween the cost of old and new style 32 page passport.

I asked that if I missed the deadline for the non-biometric 32 page passport, that I wanted them to charge me more on my credit card and give me a 48 page passport, but NOT to issue me with a biometric 32 page passport. In the event I got an old style 32 page passport, but I'd be interested to see if the old jumbo styles are available.

As regards your visa, it is still valid to the Australians and you can carry your old British passport with the visa label as evidence to match what the Australian authorities still hold on their computers.

Good Luck.


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PostPosted: Wed, 03 May 2006 19:29:51 +0000 
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I didn't realise there was an April 21st deadline. :x I planned to renew my UK passport here in Hong Kong this month. I'll attempt to do it this week and will report back.


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PostPosted: Thu, 04 May 2006 06:42:42 +0000 
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The clarification is here:

http://www.passport.gov.uk/passport_renewing_eligible.asp

- in italics at the bottom and written to be as discouraging as possible.


You can't necessarily avoid a 'biometric' passport in the weakest sense of the term (the government as usual is creating a forest of misleading terminology). The only way to guarantee that currently is same-day application through some of the provincial UK passport offices.

There's no particular reason to not to get one of the first two generations of biometric passports that we are aware of. (Though you might want to get a conductive jacket for it, to avoid it being scanned without your approval.) It is the enhanced data-collection and potential NIR registration we recommend people avoid.

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PostPosted: Thu, 04 May 2006 08:17:39 +0000 
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I phoned the Passport Advice line and Glasgow Passport Office yesterday. Apparently it is not possible to guarantee that you will not now receive a chipped passport even if you apply through the urgent route, but you are more likely to receive an old style machine readable one because they still have only limited production capabilities. They are expecting all new passports to be chipped by September.

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PostPosted: Thu, 04 May 2006 09:58:05 +0000 
Hongkonger wrote:
I didn't realise there was an April 21st deadline. :x I planned to renew my UK passport here in Hong Kong this month. I'll attempt to do it this week and will report back.


The April 21st deadline was for applications through the British High Commission in Canberra. Is this deadline for all overseas posts too?


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PostPosted: Thu, 04 May 2006 12:51:54 +0000 
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Anonymous wrote:
Hongkonger wrote:
I didn't realise there was an April 21st deadline. :x I planned to renew my UK passport here in Hong Kong this month. I'll attempt to do it this week and will report back.


The April 21st deadline was for applications through the British High Commission in Canberra. Is this deadline for all overseas posts too?


I don't know. Possibly the HK deadline will be different. I'll find out.

I'm not too concerned about the biometric passport -- as I understand it, it will only contain a photo anyway. It's being entered on the NIR I want to avoid.


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PostPosted: Thu, 04 May 2006 13:09:09 +0000 
I understand Geraint is living in a bucolic idyll, but Glasgow probably doesn't count as provincial...


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PostPosted: Thu, 04 May 2006 13:33:28 +0000 
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Anonymous wrote:
I understand Geraint is living in a bucolic idyll, but Glasgow probably doesn't count as provincial...

:shock: Glasgow is not provincial?

:looks at a map in amazement:

Hmm, I had hoped that this dear green idyllic place, being the furthest of the seven regional passport offices from London, might still offer local people some hope of avoiding the technological onslaught for a while yet.

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PostPosted: Thu, 04 May 2006 20:35:34 +0000 
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Got a call from a lovely woman in the Passport Office this evening. I was out when she rang, at 6.30pm, but I took a chance and called her back at 9pm and she was there! Much to my surprise. Didn't realise they worked evenings.

Anyway I assumed there was some problem with my photie but apparently not. She was just calling to say did I know I still had six years left to run on my passport. I said yes and that I was renewing because I didn't want an ID card. Oh, all right then, fine, she said. I'll do it for you now and you should have it in five to seven days.

Now what makes me feel sad about this is, people who work in the Passport Office are, from my experience, efficient and personable. They do a job that, generally speaking, makes people happy since most of us associate passports with foreign holidays. Therefore it is, I imagine, one of the nicer government departments to work in. However, once it becomes the registration and processing centre, the place where you are forced to go if you ever want to travel abroad again, that is not going to be the case anymore and I would imagine, having a counselling background, that it will become a very unhappy place to work, resulting in stress, time off, even industrial disputes. It will be about as popular as working in a benefit office or for the bailiffs.

Genuinely, I feel sorry for those who will be in the front line. How can this vile government turn a happy place into a thoroughly miserable one?

Are they unionised? Might be worth raising this point. Who knows, perhaps they'll just refuse to do the government's dirty work for them, not just on principle but because they want to protect their members from undue and unnecessary stress caused by a totally unnecessary workload burden.

Has anyone else taking part in the Renew For Freedom campaign had a call, I wonder?

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PostPosted: Fri, 05 May 2006 00:46:34 +0000 
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Lawlsie wrote:
Are they unionised? Might be worth raising this point. Who knows, perhaps they'll just refuse to do the government's dirty work for them, not just on principle but because they want to protect their members from undue and unnecessary stress caused by a totally unnecessary workload burden.

Most passport office workers should be members of the PCS which has already come out against the ID scheme.

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PostPosted: Fri, 05 May 2006 06:46:48 +0000 
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Geraint wrote:
Lawlsie wrote:
Are they unionised? Might be worth raising this point. Who knows, perhaps they'll just refuse to do the government's dirty work for them, not just on principle but because they want to protect their members from undue and unnecessary stress caused by a totally unnecessary workload burden.

Most passport office workers should be members of the PCS which has already come out against the ID scheme.


That's interesting... has this been discussed elsewhere?


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PostPosted: Fri, 05 May 2006 10:30:45 +0000 
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Lawlsie wrote:
How can this vile government turn a happy place into a thoroughly miserable one?


That, unfortunately, is what tyrants do.


1. It starts with their ego: "I am the Prime Minister. I have a landslide victory. Everyone loves me. I shall have a great legacy."

2. Which then turns to arrogance: "I should personally oversee this process. I am the Prime Minister everyone loves. I have super powers. No-one is as good as I am. No-one can do any job as good as I can. This should be centralised so that it is under my personal control. That minister shouldn't have autonomy as they won't do the job as well as I could do it. I must adopt a Presidential style. Nay, better yet. I should control and run the whole country single-handedly because only I - the Messiah, the Saviour of Britain - has the capability to do the job."

Unfortunately, this attitude is, of course, a denial of reality. A single person cannot run an entire country. Irrespective of whether they want to do that or not, it is simply physically impossible.


Many problems are exactly solved best by distributing the work and the problem that centralisation is actually the worst possible thing you could ever do.


For example, imagine the extreme of having just one central "mega-hospital" in Birmingham and nothing else, having to deal with the whole of the UK population (and the truth of where New Labour are headed with the NHS, this isn't as hypothetical as it really, really should be).

Right, 99% of emergency cases from the whole of Scotland die on the stupidly long journey to Birmingham. Ambluances don't show up quickly, they take half a day to get to you because they have to send them up from Birmingham and then go all the way back.

Because it's centralised, you're being a total idiot because you are inherently creating a bottleneck. This is exactly the idiotic management style that the Tories originally perfected that brought us the insanely long "waiting lists" problem.

To understand the problem, look at an exaggerated case. Imagine that there is only this one mega-hospital and that it only has one X-ray machine. Therefore, every time they need an X-ray for any patient from anywhere in the UK, they are all sent to this one X-ray machine. Obviously, to take an X-ray is not an instantaneous exercise.

Hence, if there are 10,000 people needing X-rays and each X-ray is rushed through in 5 minutes then it's going to take around 34 days - a whole month - to get through everyone.

On the other hand, if there are a 100 X-ray machines then at 5 minutes each X-ray, it'll only take just over 8 hours.

Centralised: Just over 34 days (in words: over a month)
Decentralised: Just over 8 hours (in words: a third of a day)

Big difference, eh? Massive difference.

Of course, there is such a massive difference here that you can easily afford to take longer than 5 minutes - up to 15 minutes each - in order to deliver the patient a better quality of care and you'll STILL manage all 10,000 in one day (which is, of course, what used to happen in the Golden Days of the NHS).


Because what government has not comprehended is that 1 "mega-hospital" a hundred times the size of a smaller hospital is NOT equivalent to a 100 smaller hospitals.

More formally: The assumption is that the relationship is linear (10 small hopsitals are equivalent to 1 big hospital ten times the size of the smaller hospitals). But this assumption is wholly false.

Time is linear. Money is linear.

But patient care is not.


Which is why the government with its centralising and linear mindset does not even comprehend what they are doing wrong to have Patricia Hewitt heckled by the usually tame Nurses' Union.


They don't understand the problem, so they are doing all the wrong things to solve those problems and then are shocked when it's not working and everyone's angry at them.

By the way, I'll tell you where all that extra investment in the NHS disappeared to: It disappeared because patient care is not linear, as I've just stressed. When you close 100 hospitals to open the gigantic "mega-hopsital" that mega-hospital has to be more than 100 times better equipped. No, not 100 times better equipped. MORE than 100 times better because this is not a linear relationship and for this 1 "bottleneck" hospital to do what the 100 distributed hospitals did in the same amount of time (which they need to do, to avoid "waiting lists" getting insanely large again), they need to do MORE merely to be equivalent, let alone better.

They are running to stand still.

Because the government thought it was being clever to insist on "more centralisation" as it offered the large investment: Failing to realise that this "modernisation" is a technically inferior model for delivering patient care that requires all that extra investment merely to reach the standards and speeds that existed before.

In other words, for the single hospital that takes 34 days to match the 8 hours of the decentralised distributed hospitals takes, as you can imagine, a massive investment of money to catch up.

That's where all the money has gone that after a record investment in the NHS, the hospitals are actually still in debt and not really any better than they were before. Because the idiot government made "centralisation" a condition of that investment.

They gave them more money, sure, but then demanded as a condition of that money that they change the system to something vastly, vastly inferior.

Which can be shown mathematically and technically as being the case that a centralised model is inferior to the decentralised distributed model and, no, it's not a linear relationship either: A hopsital ten times bigger is NOT equivalent to 10 hospitals.

The fact that the government can't understand that - as they think politically and not technically, in terms of managing the NHS and the police and other public services - is exactly how they are running these public services into the ground.

Despite political rhetoric that the NHS has improved, this really isn't true on the ground. Hospitals are being closed.

People are dying in ambulances on the way to hospital (ask any medical professional: The first few minutes and hours of an emergency is where the real life-saving happens. In patient care, time is not linear. The more delayed the treatment, the greater the probability that the person will die. If someone has a cardiac arrest then if you're not attempting to save their life within those first few minutes - as immediately as possible - the plain truth is that the patient is dead. Therefore, the distances ambulances have to travel to emergencies - both directions - very, very much is highly significant but the government's planners seem to think that it doesn't matter. If you want to save more lives then you need many ambulances scattered around the country to minimise those distances. But the government's planning seems to only be taking account of the cost of "petrol money" and buying the ambulances - financial - without taking into consideration the medical aspects at all. Money is linear but patient care is not. They are presuming linearity in their equations which is simply not true in the reality of keeping people alive and healthy. Good medical treatment, sorry, needs redundency in the system: This is different to a production line in a factory where redundency is nothing but waste. But the government's managers are "treating patient care as a business" without realising that this is equivalent to "treating black as if it were white" or "treating oranges as if they were apples").

3. Because their policies aren't working and people are turning on them in anger, they become paranoid: "Why are the police not happy with our investment and new control structures? Why are the nurses heckling? These people do not know what I - their God and Saviour - am doing for them. They are ungrateful children. I must guard against their backstabbing and betrayal: Ban peaceful protests!! Ban freedom of speech!! Ban civil liberties!! Remove the checks and balances!! How can I save the world with my superpowers when I have such blocks and obstacles and backstabbers at my heels?"

Ironically, believing that the anger is "enemies at the gate", the egomaniac is the one who starts betraying everyone, thinking (falsely) that they are "defending themselves".

For example, Walter Wolfgang: His protest was correct. He was shouting at Jack Straw, not because he is an enemy of the Labour party but because he is a member of the Labour Party. Walter Wolfgang could see that New Labour has gone wrong and he couldn't stand by and let that happen to his own party.

He had to stand up and shout "the Emperor is naked" to New Labour, not in malice as an enemy but as a dire warning from a friend.

The problem is, this is not how the paranoid "Emperor" sees it. From their perspective, it shows that their "enemies" are now amongst their own party. It means that the party members themselves cannot be trusted.

It means further decentralised, less democracy, more autocracy from our tyrant-to-be.

In their mind, Walter Wolfgang's outburst is not a friend trying to make them see sense, it's an indication of just how widespread their "enemies" are. How they cannot trust their own party members. How they cannot trust the British population.

And what happens when our egomaniac doesn't trust anyone?

"We need ID cards to monitor everyone!! We need satellites to watch them everywhere they go!! We must stop our enemies protesting!!!"

The grand irony of which is that the reality which New Labour can't see is that it is they who have become the betrayers and the backstabbers.

When Labour got in and Tony was first around, the people of this country generally liked him and were behind him - hence the landslide victory and cosy little "honeymoon period" he got with almost no criticisms at all - and most of those he now sees as "enemies" - such as possibly someone like me - would not actually give a shit about the politics of this situation whatsoever, if they weren't dangerously messing up this country.

Personally, I don't believe in party politics at all - I think that it causes more harm than it does any good for anyone - that I honestly don't care if it's New Labour or New Tories or New Greens or whoever. That is NOT the angle I'm coming from (and likely not where most others here are coming from).

We are not the "enemy".

Blair's paranoia is the enemy and it is the betrayer.

Unfortunately, it's a vicious circle.

The more you try to tell the tyrant that they are going about things the wrong way, the more they are convinced you are their "enemy". The more convinced they are that "our enemies are everywhere", the more they want to monitor and control everyone. The more they want to monitor and control everyone, the more people protest to them that they are going about things dangerously in the wrong way.

Although, this is not to say that leaving the tyrant alone would do any good. It wouldn't. Because if paranoia is guiding their actions then they'll start seeing "bogeymen" where they aren't any and jump at ghosts who aren't even there. They would get worse under their own steam that backing off doesn't help: The protests must be made because the only way to stop the vicious circle is to try to get through to the tyrant what's happening that they willingly step out of that vicious circle. Or, if that fails, you mount the protests to bring things to a head, that one way or the other it gets settled: Preferrably reaching the electorate to oust the tyrant peacefully. But also a campaign of non-compliance to make the most wrongful policies - ID cards and the NIR - unworkable.

4. Like grasping at a wet bar of soap, the more the tyrant tries to tighten his grip, the more it slips out of his reach.

The more the tyrant monitors and controls and enforces draconian measures, the less tolerant and compliant the population will be to such unwarranted mistreatment and the more "enemies" the tyrant makes.

If the tyrant does not see sense and back down then this vicious circle gets worse and worse. The more people non-comply with ID cards, the more mad cap schemes of "satellite tracking" and such the tyrant believes he needs to "keep himself safe" (the grand irony, of course, is that the tyrant would not be in any danger in the first place, if his paranoia hadn't made him turn on his own people: Therefore, the problem is only exacerbated over and over again).

Of course, not even a vicious circle can actually last forever. At some point, things will come to a head. The tyrant will be ousted.

If the tyrant has any sense left in his paranoid little mind then he walks away now rather than waits for things to get so bad that a lynch mob drags his sorry little arse out of Parliament by force (based on historical precedent for these situations: The tyrant who absolutely will not be moved by anything always comes to a sticky end. In no way do I wish this - stating it aloud here is my means to try to forewarn that it hopefully never happens - but that is simply what will eventually happen).


This, unfortunately, is what tyrants do.


"Sic Semper Tyrannis" ("and, thus, it shall always be for tyrants")
- Brutus and the conspirators after assassinating Julius Caesar

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PostPosted: Fri, 05 May 2006 10:52:52 +0000 
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Most passport office workers should be members of the PCS which has already come out against the ID scheme.


Once I get my passport, I'm going to ring that woman back, thank her for her prompt and efficient work, and warn her about what kind of life might be ahead for her and her co-workers.

When I said that I was renewing to avoid ID registration she didn't seem to know much about it. Just a kind of, oh, okay then. How informed are passport staff that their lives are going to be turned upside down, their jobs totally changed and their work environment deeply unpleasant?

We need these people on side. They will suffer because of this every bit as much as we will.

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"I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, briefed, debriefed, indexed or NUMBERED! My life is my own."

Leek@no2id.net


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 Post subject: Clarification on passport renewal
PostPosted: Thu, 11 May 2006 19:43:01 +0000 
Hey Tony, some good advice from Bob the Builder:

Quote:
If the tyrant has any sense left in his paranoid little mind then he walks away now rather than waits for things to get so bad that a lynch mob drags his sorry little arse out of Parliament by force (based on historical precedent for these situations: The tyrant who absolutely will not be moved by anything always comes to a sticky end. In no way do I wish this - stating it aloud here is my means to try to forewarn that it hopefully never happens - but that is simply what will eventually happen).


Didn't Mussolini end up hanging upside down from a lampost? And that's despite getting the trains to run on time - you didn't even manage that Tony Boy. Good advance thinking though in getting yourself fenced off from the real world at Downing Street?

John


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PostPosted: Fri, 12 May 2006 20:17:52 +0000 
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Mussolini didn't get the trains to run on time. Its a myth like ID cards being a good thing and the government knowing whats best for us plebs.

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PostPosted: Fri, 12 May 2006 22:49:42 +0000 
Tony Blair was also not responsible for the gating off of Downing Street. It was done way before he arrived there. It's a minor point anyway.

More to the point is he's 'free' inside the gates, whilst the aim seems to be to make us all 'prisoners of the state' outside of them.


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