NO2ID

NO2ID

NO2ID's ID Card & Database State Online Discussion Forum
 
It is currently Tue, 18 Jun 2013 22:03:45 +0000

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Replacing Passport
PostPosted: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:07:50 +0000 
Are they already taking biometrics with new passports or is there time to get a new one?


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:43:25 +0000 
The new passports will, for now at least, only need a standard passport photo they can get biometric data from. (You can no longer smile in them though, as that would bugger up the face scan...) That info would be then stored on a chip stored onto the new passport.

Really, it's just a slightly more jazzed up version of the machine readable passports we're all used to. The real threat will come from passports which, if that horrid bill gets through, will demand ever more biometrics and will store them in the NIR...


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 00:14:59 +0000 
do you know how long this will be the case for?


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 02:57:56 +0000 
According to the UKPS web site, the first biometric passports will be issued next month. From then on they will carry on in that format for the foreseeable future.


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 06:14:43 +0000 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:34:03 +0000
Posts: 2532
Location: London
Which puts the lie to the whole "we might as well do this because we must do most of it for biometric passports" argument for the national ID system.

_________________
Guy Herbert
General Secretary, NO2ID
general.secretary@no2id.net
(to contact me directly email. Don't use the forum messaging service.)


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 17:35:43 +0000 
Offline
C-List
C-List

Joined: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:00:41 +0000
Posts: 901
Location: The Glorious Plutocratic ConDem Syndicate (Australo-Oriens locality)
I thought RFID chips were being inserted into passports first, before biometrics. That was the excuse for putting the price up last Dec. 1st after all.

_________________
Be seeing you...


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 20:54:30 +0000 
RFID won't be on UK Passports (for now...) but the US government is working on 'em...

It's easy to get around though - just store your RFID in a slipcase with powdered lead padding so. At least until they ban those too.


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 22:33:06 +0000 
I read the UKPS website as saying that biometric passports will be rolled out sometime this year and will take around 6 to 9 months. 2008 will potentially see the introduction of fingerprints.

The RFID chip hold the biometric data so rfid and biometrics go hand in hand.

You want need lead underpants to keep your details private. google for 'ICAO basic access control' to see why it's not straightforward to read these things without having direct access to the passport.


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 23:38:49 +0000 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:56:20 +0000
Posts: 5210
Location: Glasgow
guest wrote:
I read the UKPS website as saying that biometric passports will be rolled out sometime this year and will take around 6 to 9 months. 2008 will potentially see the introduction of fingerprints.

The RFID chip hold the biometric data so rfid and biometrics go hand in hand.

Can you give a link to where you read that RFID chips are being introduced?

Last time I read the UKPS 5 year business plan (a few months ago) it said that chips (non-RFID, AFAIK) are being introduced in the very near future, if not already. Initially they will be blank and over a period of a few months biometric data (digital photos) will start to be encoded on them. After successful deployment of these, subsequent phases may introduce additional biometrics, specifically fingerprints and iris scans.

_________________
Geraint.
3085 D1DD B2A8 15ED 492F E75D 7175 7737 9D10 98D3 - Fingerprint


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:31:21 +0000 
This site says that RFID-style chips will be used, but whether that means they'll work just like RFID or need to be held pretty close to a chip reader is a different matter altogether. Full-on RFID is certainly controversial in the US, and won't be introduced there for now.


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 00:43:33 +0000 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:56:20 +0000
Posts: 5210
Location: Glasgow
A visitor. wrote:
This site says that RFID-style chips will be used, but whether that means they'll work just like RFID or need to be held pretty close to a chip reader is a different matter altogether. Full-on RFID is certainly controversial in the US, and won't be introduced there for now.

A google search for <a href="http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Aukps.gov.uk+rfid">site:ukps.gov.uk rfid</a> does not match any documents; nor does a search for "contactless" on the same site. I've checked the 5 year plan again. It mentions "biometric chips" but RFID and contactless do not appear anywhere in the 44 pages, so it doesn't appear that the Home Office are exactly shouting that their new e-passports will have contactless chips.

However, the latest ICAO report on <a href="http://www.icao.int/mrtd/download/documents/Biometrics%20deployment%20of%20Machine%20Readable%20Travel%20Documents%202004.pdf">Machine Readable Travel Documents</a> does suggest that the chips will be contactless: (page 35)
Quote:
Useability
Border Authorities have a strong desire for a contactless mode of operation - this is the data storage technology alternative most amenable to the passport booklet format, and the easiest for passport holders to manage – rather than swiping or sensing the electronic data it is simply retrieved via short-range antennae – the holder placing their MRTD on top of a designated reading device. High Density Magnetic Strip, Optical Memory and Contact IC chips all require direct contact of the technology with a reader. 2DB requires direct, or line-of-sight, contact of the technology with a reader. The only technology that requires neither direct or line-of-sight contact is Contactless IC Chips.

Data Storage -
Transitional considerations aside, the minimum practicable data storage capacity needed for biometric verification given inclusion of facial images is approximately 15-20K (kilobytes) of data {ref Section 7, as well as Annexes B and C – Optimal Data Storage Sizes}. This need obviates the use of 2DB (typical capacity up to 2.2K, though some technologies up to 15.5K are available which have potential for deployment in localized travel document applications); and of High Density Magnetic Strip (typical capacity is up to 3,024 bytes gross; 2328 bytes net of overheads) The only technologies with sufficient capacity are Contact IC chips, Contactless IC Chips and Optical Memory.

Performance -
• The more data to be retrieved, the slower the retrieval rate for any given technology.
• The ability to retrieve randomly only the data you need as opposed to serially reading the entire record also improves performance throughputs.
• In general Contactless IC Chip technologies read faster than Contact IC chips. Furthermore to meet the necessary data retrieval requirements, an operating system on the chip is required which is as per ISO Standard 7816-4 (refer the LDS Technical Report).

Overall in terms of the considerations of Useability, Data Storage and Performance, Contactless IC Chip is the only Data Storage Technology that meets all three considerations.


More info at http://www.icao.int/mrtd/Home/index.cfm

update: link to MTRD standard fixed above.

_________________
Geraint.
3085 D1DD B2A8 15ED 492F E75D 7175 7737 9D10 98D3 - Fingerprint


Last edited by Geraint on Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:49:27 +0000, edited 2 times in total.

Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: passports
PostPosted: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 01:44:17 +0000 
I know that Germany is already rolling out RFID passports with 2 fingerprints and photo encoded on the chip.


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:02:29 +0000 
Offline
A-List
A-List

Joined: Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:32:51 +0000
Posts: 2733
Location: Bristol
Quote:
Useability
Border Authorities have a strong desire for a contactless mode of operation...

Data Storage -
Transitional considerations aside, the minimum practicable data storage capacity...

Performance...


Given that ICAO are supposed to be securing our borders and stopping terrorist activity, you'd think that Security would be somewhere on their list of criteria!?

BTW, couldn't find the above text in the PDF.

_________________
Special Blunkett edition of Bristol NO2ID website:
http://www.bristol-no2id.org.uk/


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:50:19 +0000 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:56:20 +0000
Posts: 5210
Location: Glasgow
davegould wrote:
BTW, couldn't find the above text in the PDF.

Oops, a cut and paste error. I've fixed the link now.

_________________
Geraint.
3085 D1DD B2A8 15ED 492F E75D 7175 7737 9D10 98D3 - Fingerprint


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:53:34 +0000 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:56:20 +0000
Posts: 5210
Location: Glasgow
UKPS have sent me an answer to a simple question that I asked last night
I wrote:
Hello, can you please tell me if the chips included in the new biometric e-passports are RFID (i.e. contactless) or if they are simple smart chips which must be in contact with the reader (as with chip-and-pin credit cards)?

Thank you.

Unfortunately, their standard is not particularly illuminating
UKPS wrote:
Thank you for your enquiry.

The US expects countries that are covered by the visa waiver scheme to have a plan in place that clearly outlines how they will introduce biometric data to passports issued. The UKPS have a programme of work in place to offer its customers passport books and/or passport cards that will include a biometric identifier. Passports with a biometric will be produced early in 2006, but there will be a gradual roll out of these new passports and it is not possible to specify which sort of passport you will receive until UKPS cease production of the current design of passport.


>From the 26 June 2005 passports for visa free travel to the US must be machine-readable .From this date anyone who does not have their own machine-readable passport including Children included on a parents passport will need to apply for their own or OBTAIN A VISA to travel..

Thank you

_________________
Geraint.
3085 D1DD B2A8 15ED 492F E75D 7175 7737 9D10 98D3 - Fingerprint


Report this post
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:49:01 +0000 
Apologies for this but I can't find a direct link!

go to http://news.bbc.co.uk/

then enter 'passports' in the search field (top right) and click search

On the results page click on 'all news audio and video results'

Look for "UK launches 'encrypted' passports"

Watch and enjoy. You get an excellent shot of the chip, complete with antenna.


Report this post
Top
  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 16 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum