NO2ID

I wrote a post on the 'Renew for Freedom' sticky at the top but I don't think anyone has noticed so I thought I'd make a new topic.

If I am correct this is the last year we can renew our passports without being forced onto the NIR. I was wondering if there were any plans to really push the 'Renew for Freedom' campaign this year?

Perhaps a press release like the one in September 2006 titled 'Last chance to renew your passport before price hike'?

A lot of people seem unaware of the changes and even if they don't care about the privacy issues they may care about the sheer inconvenience of having to visit the processing plant.

Another thing I've noticed about the 'Renew for Freedom' website is that it could do with an update. When I first went to it I thought I'd missed my chance. It's not clear when the cut-off is (although I appreciate we still don't know an exact date) and the last news item on the page is over a year old!

It does seem to me that once the deadline had passed, our leverage will be seriously reduced.

Trin

Hi,
This is my first post and it fits in with your concerns. I called the IPS advice line this morning to find out about renewal of my adult passport and the NIR. The operator started by asking for my name and address, I in return asked for assurances and information about their data protection leaflet.....it was at this point that he placed me on hold. When he came back to me 3 mins later he said he couldn't tell me about it and wouldn't be able to send any info out to me about how they store and use this recorded data (names and addresses of people phoning with queries). He just said it was for training purposes.
I think this is a weak argument and that you can't enquire about anything by telephone, email or in person without giving your details. Has anyone got any ideas about how to get a definitive answer about the NIR and if I renew my passport in the next two weeks will I be expected to give biometric details. Also has anyone else question the IPS on their DPA leaflets or have got one?
Thanks

Hi cressida, welcome to the forum.

If you renew your passport in the next two weeks, you won't be called in for interrogation or required to submit any biometric data other than your photo.

The Identity and Passport Service will not give you definitive information about the NIR. The best ways of getting answers are by making Freedom of Information requests or writing to your MP, but both of these methods require contact details to be supplied.

For questions that are solely about passport applications, the passport half of the www.ips.gov.uk website is not too bad, but it only tells you about current practices, not future intentions.

Problem is it is a moving goal. The IPS haven't got their act together, so not even they know when they'll be capturing the data for the ID scheme. Though they seem to be working hard on conditioning people to thnk it is natural to give vast amounts of information about yourself into official control.

I know. I've just renewed my passport even though the old one didn't run out until 2012. Now they are saying the scheme has been put back a further 2 years (though not sure if they mean the cards or the NIR). By the time they get their act together, I'll have used 4 years up on my new passport and I'll be wishing I'd waited!

Still it does give us more time to kill the scheme.

I renewed my passport early last year, before it was due to be renewed, for similar reasons. I was horrified to find that I had been issued with a biometric passport.
The information supplied with this stated that only some of new issues would be biometric, so it seemed I had been unlucky.

Does anyone know if it is worth renewing again, with a non-biometric compliant photo, in the hope I can get a non-biometric passport while there's still time?

Or once you are on is that it?

See my other post. What do you mean 'once you are on'? Just because you have a chip in your passport does not mean you are 'on' anything. The NIR doesn't exist yet, so don't worry about that.

I mean once your biometric facial details are on their records, is there no way back to a non-chip passport.

I thought they were still phasing them in, but it seems that if you are right that everyone is getting them now.

The biometric detail is the photograph on your passport. The only place that is reproduced is on the chip (which is on your passport). The other photo is kept by IPS sp they can compare (presently visually) when you renew. Breath easy.

walking around with a chip and antenna though?

(that has been shown to be hack-able)

I think only when compared to the NIR and other nightmare database scenarios does this seem anything approaching ok.

Looked at on its own though, it is a deeply unsatisfying state of affairs.

If this is a concern, create a simple Faraday cage or even simpler wrap your passport with cooking foil (shiny side outwards) double or triple thickness.

Above was me. I seem to have duplicated Kitfox's Q&A reply. Oops.

Does the cooking foil thing really work?

On the NIR:

Is there any way that the NIR could be introduced by tacking on a clause to some other legislation? From the distance I am looking I get the impression that those who want the ID cards and NIR have understood that there will be significant resistance to the introduction from those who are forced to 'use' the 'service'. If you have read Sun Tzu then you know that you want to confuse your enemy. How can we be sure that the current mess-ups are not justs part of a ruse to confuse?

We must retain our vigilance until there is a change of government to one which does not implement the NIR.

On the Cooking Foil:

I work at a location where personal details are stored - A German Mobile Phone provider. I have nothing to do with the systems where this data is stored, but to protect that data from illegitimate use, we have a security system with RFID Passes for Access control. I have just renewed my passport. Before receipt of the passport I checked that cooking foil blocks the operation of the card reader by using my access card - The reader could not read my card even with direct contact to the reader if the card was in the foil. On Receipt of the Passport I let the access control system try to read my passport. The Reader recieved the signal back from the passport, but could not interpret it, so it signaled an error and (thankfully!) denied access.

Then I put the Passport in the same foil. The reader no longer registered a signal so I conclude that the Cooking foil trick blocks close proximity detectors and would at least make it harder to track an ISO/IEC 14443 RFID Tag at a distance.

Provisos:

I have no access to the longer range scanners that are available on the market, therefore I cannot prove that these would not be able to defeat the foil by using their higher powe/sensitivity at a shorter range.

I assume that if an ID Card is useable for EU travel, it must also conform to the ICAO RFID standard and therefore also contain the same standard of tag.

I have tried placing a MIFARE ultralight tagnear my access card (without foil) This tag could not be read by the system but resonated sufficiently to prevent the access card from granting access. I will try to get some more 13.56MHz Tags and continue my experiments...

Stay Free!

There is no need for further legislation. The Identity Cards Act 2006 already gives the government all the legal powers it needs to create the NIR. It is only the technical and cost barriers that prevent it from existing now.

Meaning we have to watch for activities indicative of a pending implementation of some part of the act. Also the Act would have to be repealed or annulled by any future government for us to be certain.

I normally test software not law - sorry for being confused in the first part, and thankyou Geraint for pointing this out

Still, isn't Renew for Freedom the right place for bang-up-to-date info on the current situation, even if it could change at any time in the future? E.g. a status position, something like...

First-time passport applicants: compulsory interviews have begun across the whole of the UK, though not yet for all applicants; no fingerprinting yet; no registration onto the NIR yet. Advice: apply as soon as possible.

Passport renewals: no compulsory interviews, fingerprinting, or NIR yet. Advice: renew if you have less than 3 years left on your passport.

This advice was last updated on ...

does anyone know where the statutory right to ask questions, as a condition of passport renewal, comes from? There may be mileage in challenging inappropriate questions or those that are too far reaching and not justified under the statute. Asking such questions might cause less than fully motivated people a bit of indignation, or attract news interest, as revealling some undeclared agenda.

Passports are issued under the royal prerogative, not as a result of any statute law. MPs could presumably introduce legislation to wrest control of this important function from the executive, but there appears to be little desire to do so.

so following that line then would it not be possible to argue that such questions if not carried out by people eployed by the royal household are entirely superfluous. After all what does the queen(read: Crown) need the data for?

The Royal Prerogative is nothing to do with the Royal Household, or persons employed by the Monarch.

They are the powers not otherwise regulated or controlled by statute, and are exercisable (as the UK is a form of constitutional feudal monarchy, modified by various concessions, Civil Wars etc., from an absolute monarchy) by the Crown largely by convention (custom and practice) by and with the consent of the Ministers of the Crown. That is, these Executive powers are exercised by Ministers without any direct oversight by, or accountability to, either House of Parliament.

Well it was worth a shot at mentioning it. Perhaps we could argue that powers not given/controlled by laws on the statue book are themselves not legal, because there is no oversight or legal review. but somehow i fear thats a non-starter too

Not logged in but it's zorrodp

Because this is still essentially a feudal society, all power descends from above - and parliamentary authority is in fact the Monarch in Parliament, with the (grudging) grant of certain powers (through the various rebellions, bills of rights, Civil Wars etc) that are exerciseable by Parliament ..... still requring the Monarch's (gracious) assent. No bill can be enacted without the support of Parliament.

Hence the introductory para to all Bills (and Acts):

Be it enacted by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:—
...............................

Other forms of authority are Orders in Council - the Queen in Council - her Privy Council - which are again Prerogative Powers.

Royal Assent is signified by the Norman-French phrase La Reine le veult - generally given on the Monarch's behalf - traditionally by the Lord High Executioner, no that must be Chancellor. There are lots of offices and sinecures that were very profitable .... the Lord Commissioners charged with execising the Office of the Lord High Admiral (and the Secretary of the Navy who did the real work) used to rake in a healthy penny or two.

But that's maybe a tad tangential .......... but fun!

And if the Monarch refused: La Reine s'avisera - but that would provoke a constitutional clash of epic proportions and has not happened in the modern era.

Others may know better, but I can't recall an example since at least Charles I unfortunate contretemps ....... since then Monarchs have preferred to not lose their heads over struggles with Parliament ....

Well, I am not breathing easy. My concern is that everyone with a 'biometric' passport, including me, has now got an entry created in some IPS database. And that when the NIR is implemented one of the pieces of software associated with it will be something that migrates this data to the NIR. If I was implementing the NIR that's what I would do.

I wonder how we can find out how the IPS stores the data that is also in the RFID.